doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Schoverling, Daly and Gales and the Manhattan Arms Gun

Would like to gain a better understanding of SD&G's sale of this gun, one model of which was a hammerless sidelocker probably made by Sauer, or perhaps Schiller or Heinrich Lindner. A partial table of contents for SD&G's 1892 catalog lists guns by Manhattan Arms as included. A SD&G 1905 catalog's table of contents does not list Manhattan Arms guns, but does note Sauer guns as included. Cornell Publishing offers these catalogs, but I have not had an opportunity yet to study their contents.

THe SD&G firm was reorganized in 1875 under the stated name and operated until 1939. Were Manhattan-named double guns offered before 1892? Were boxlock Manhattan Arms guns also offered? Is serial number/year of production related data available for Manhattan double guns? Were 16 gauge Manhattan Arms guns offered?

Did SD&G offer sidelock model Sauer made hammerless guns, as well as the firm's boxlocks?

On a related note, one data source I accessed noted that Lefever made guns for SD&G during this period. Were such guns Lefever's sideplate guns? Were they marked with the Schoverling Daly and Gales firm name?

All help appreciated.

Outdoorlvr,

I'm on travel and away from my reference material. I'll do some digging later in the week and see what I can discover in the older SD&G material on Manhattan Arms that might answer some of your questions.

A couple quick thoughts -

On the Lefever question - SD&G had Daly guns built on the Lefever 1880 sidecocker patent but all the Daly sidecockers I have seen appear to have been made overseas using that patent. I'm not aware of any Lefever built guns bearing the Charles Daly or SD&G name.

I would cut off 10 years from the SD&G tenure (late 1920s vice late 1930s). A series of reorganizations/sales kept the firm going past the late 1920s but technically it was no longer SD&G. Kinckerbocker was added to the name and short time later KSD&G was dead and Charles Daly, Inc. was born. I know I'm nitpicking here.

More to follow,

Ken

I have a drilling (three barrel, 12 x 12 x 9.3x7.2) with Manhattan Arms Company stamped on the lockplates. Has fine 29 1/2-in damascus barrels, Italian walnut stock, external hammers, top lever, and sidelever that opens the breech. Locks up tight like a bank vault. Light scroll work, excellent workmanship. A close look at the proof marks tells you it was made by JP Sauer and Sohns in Germany with a serial number that dates it at 1883. On the ebony buttplate is the initials (logo) for Schoverling, Gales & Daly. This firm imported firearms from Europe at the Chamber Street address in New York. In the past few years I've seen a few Manhattan Arms Company shotguns (hammerless) at the local antique gun shows.

By the way, the stock is about 2 inches short for a proper fit (about 13 inch LOP). Does anyone know a decent gunsmith in the Detroit-metro area where I can look into a wood extension. Tried a add-on pad, still too short.

Thanks,

MikeF

My Father had a Damascus barrel 10-gauge boxlock hammerless double briefly that was marked Manhatten Arms Co. From what I remember it looked like a typical Birmingham trade gun. By the 1912 SD&G catalogue the hammerless boxlock gun being sold under the Manhatten Arms Co. name was a Hunter Arms Co. Fulton.

Ken and Mike

Could it be that Mike's 1883 drilling was built on the Lefever @1880 patent?

This is beginning to sound pretty incestuous. Early on SD&G was located and 84 & 86 Chamber Street, NY - I'm going to guess this is the street number on the Manhattan Arms gun if it is marked with any numbers. Every Charles Daly drilling I have ever seen has been made by Sauer. I'd be curious to sit a Daly drilling alongside a Manhattan Arms drilling. I got a feeling they'd be identical except for some letter stamps. So was Manhattan Arms just another SD&G trade name (a la "Charles Daly").

I need access to my references but I'd like to check when Manhattan arms drillings dissappear from the SD&G catalogs and the retailing of Charles Daly drillings begin?

Ken

To continue this little sidebar a bit - - What would have been the obligation of Sauer, for instance, to have shown a European/Prussian patent related to Lefever on a Sauer made Daly? - -Or, some other achnowledgment of Lefever involvment? Any suggestive markings on your drilling, Mike?

In Bob Elliot's book he pictures an I grade Lefever with the SD&G mark. These guns appear to be identical to the DS, but were no listed in the LAC catalogs. Bob surmises that most of them may have been sold through SD&G. These were introduced ca 1900.
Miller

Ken - you're right about the trade name. I went to my reference books (Carder) and it says, Manhattan Arms Co was a trade name used on hammer and hammerless side by side imported by Schoverling, Daly and Gales, and also, Von Lenggerke & Detmold, both of New York city. The guns were made in Belguim by Neumann Freres and Fabrique d'Armes Fs. Dumoulin & Co., and in Germany by J.P. Sauer. The 1887 Merwin Hulbert & Co. catalog featured the hammer gun $25.65 to $37.50 and the hammerless gun for $68.00 for a 12 gauge, and $72.00 for a 10 gauge. Choice of barrels were in twist, laminated or damascus.

MikeF