doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Damascus small bore upland guns

The gun on auction looks like it was a low end clunker when new and is now in "wall hanger" condition. You can find much better guns for the same money or a little more if you look around. Eightbore is correct in that the Husqvarna's are sleepers considering the quality.
Although I have a number of Husqvarna's and other doubles for sale most mail order sales for cheaper doubles are to dealers. Individual sales of low dollar guns to the end user is often more time consuming and sometimes painful to be worthwhile. Its just a lot easier to sell 20 guns to one dealer with a phone call than 20 individuals who each want a piles of pictures. I do post some higher condition guns to gunbroker and auction arms when time permits. It seems the only thing I can not make is the time to get everything done in a 24 hr day.

Mike,

Your Imman is spectacular. Please post more photos.!

JDG

Ken, I agree that the gun I posted is a clunker. It was just an example.

That Meffert is fantastic. I can't imagine shooting late season pheasant loads through such a gun, but all these small bore damascus examples have me drooling.

Thanks!

I do shoot 16 gauge low pressure reloads through it - 1-1/16oz, but I have not managed to hit a pheasant so far. When I shot the Bobwhite with it yesterday I was actually hunting pheasant.

Here is a link to pictures posted on the 16ga website:
http://www.16ga.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2391

Joe/Flintsteel took the pictures for me - he is an excellent photographer and fine shot.

Mike

Lets go back to pressure versus velocity. They are not directly related. Velocity is the product of the "Work Performed" or maybe a better understanding would be pressure over time. If you had a graph of pressure on the vertical axis and time on the horizontal, the area under the pressure curve from time the primer exploded until the shot exited the muzzle would be the representation of work. Smokeless powder tends to have a very high sharp peak relatively early in the the ignition but it is so brief as to make little difference in total area under the curve. Black powder, without the very sharp spike and just a very small bit wider, although lower, peak makes up the difference and they are thereafter virtually identical all the way down the bore. Re read what Sherman Bell is telling you in the latest article. Black is not second best, just makes smoke and stink and is a little more dangerous to handle since it is an explosive versus smokeless which is an inflamable. It also requires much greater space for powder in most applications other than larger guage shotgun shells.

My question concerning pressures around the turn of the century were not directed at any particular gun or maker, only that most of the big three/four american makers had damascus guns available at this time. I limit it to american makers only due to my intrests. The problem that I have is this... I have heard the recommendations related to pressures and damascus guns, but no one has come out and said this pressure is safe because the loads at the time developed these pressures routinely. For instance, in 1900, the loads that were readily available developed this pressure.....obviously this isn't going to be a one pressure answer, but rather a range. I also understand that pressures were not measured in 1900, hence the work of Bell.

I have several damascus guns that I intend to shoot, however, I don't want to keep the pressures at 8000 psi because Bob or Jack or who ever told me so...I'd rather know what was available and shot with regularity when the guns were new, and then use BP or smokeless to get a load that works for the situation I intend to shoot. Pressures in small bores are different than the 12, so it would be nice to have info related to that since that relates to the initial start of this thread.

James and Pete,

Thank you for the info.

doc06,

There are many here who shoot old damascus barreled guns on a regular basis. There are others who would never shoot them. The problem is that they passed proof 90 - 100+ years ago.
It is impossible to tell what has been done to them. Unless you are willing to pay to have the gun reproofed today.

I recently sent a set of barrels to Mike Orlen for some work. These are fluid steel barrels from about 1950. Mike emailed me and later we talked on the phone.
He found some rather thin spots just ahead of the fore end. In fact they measured at only 0.020 thickness. Whether this was a dent that was badly repaired or some one with getting aggressive with a hone is unclear.
We both decided the gun should be retired.

Each gun has to be treated as unique. The barrels should be measured for thickness. The action and lock up should be checked.

Some guns should simply not be fired with any ammo at any pressure. It is a judgement call, that should be made with as much information as possible about the gun in question.

Damascus presents a unique situation. It was constructed out of a billet of various steels. It was welded at every stage.
This was a great improvement over the old rolled steel barrels that would burst at the seam. However, every one of those welds presents the possibility of corrosion over time if the barrels were not cared for properly.



If you are sure of the gun in question, look to start around 5,000 psi.

For some old black powder loads take a look at:
http://www.tbullock.com/bpsg.html

Peter

In W W Greeners 9th Edition (1910) he pictures the "Crusher Gauge"; pressure gun using lead or copper crushers for measuring peak pressures. Pressures may well have been accurately measured for a little longer than most realize. they were however likely known mostly to gun & ammo manufactures & not generally published. In the 1913 catalog there are loads listed for the various gauges which no doubt ran into the 9k or above pressure level with no cautions about which type of their bbls they were to be used in. For instance in 12ga they show up to 28grains of "Infallible" powder under 1¼oz shot. According to an old article from the "American Rifleman" Unique & Infallible were identical. Even with card & felt wadding this is not a particularly mild load. I think pressures at the turn of the century may well have run a little higher than we are often led to believe. The thing to remember though is these guns are now a century± old. I lack some 30+ years of being a century old, but can't do what I could a mere half century ago. Treat them kind & they will just keep on keeping on.
Personally as my use of these guns is afield, their use requires fewer shots than going to the target course, I prefer to go no lower than aboout 7K in 12ga & 8K in the smaller bores. Lower pressures are simply not always reliable in colder weather.

Pete and Piper,

Thanks for the info. These are the bits of info that I was looking for. I understand the unique problems that not just damascus barrels, but also fluid steel and wood that is 100 years old provide. I am also going on the assumption that the barrels, and the gun for that matter, are given a clean bill of health. I am the type of person that likes to see and/or read the proof behind the reasons and not just the answers. I have no problem shooting loads that develop pressures similar to what was available when these guns were made as long as I can see what those pressures likley were. I don't want to settle for "X" psi, without knowing how that number was come about.