doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com 450 BPE 3"?

There is Frankotte DR circa 1912 and chambers and bores look like .450-3", not most common 3 1/4", but 3". Case is sligtly tapered straight. There is sign on barrels 'lead bullet', but nitro proof is on barrels also. Nitro proof mark looks like more late Belgian proof, cause this mark is located just over sign Siemens Martin Steel.
Have you ever heard about 450-3" rounds?

An older copy of "Cartridges of the World", lists a 450 / 400 NE (3"). If you need the dimensions or ballistics, let me know.

Pete

Looking through Dixon's "European Sporting Cartridges" volume 1 does not show any 3 inch (72-77mm) straight cartridges with bullet diameters between 10,75mm and 12mm. Fleming's "British Sporting Rifle Cartridges" shows only a single undated entry for an early coiled .450 at 3 inches, but nothing in drawn brass at that length.

There is the pre-1880 U.S. .45 2-7/8" Sharps cartridge, but it seems unlikely that a Francotte double rifle built around 1912 would be chambered for that round.

An interesting puzzle...

I didn't see this DR myself yet, but I asked this man about bore dimention several times and every time he replied bore = .450, grooves .458. Well. I guess it's 450 for real.
Then I asked about some 'shoulders' on chamber cast alluding to 500/450 case, but the owner is sure there is no any shoulders on case, it's straight and tapered.
Previuosly he was sure it's 3 1/4 case and has bought 20 cases from US, but when he got these cases, he can't insert case in chamber in full. Aprx. 1/4" of case sticks out from chamber.
Is it possible brand new cases have to be formed again before using?

Funny, but I have found two rounds in the list of British ammo: 450-3" and 450-3&1/16"
http://www.gun-data.com/britishcfc2_arms.html
Scroll down to the .450 listing.
What does Coiled mean in this case?

Hello Geno,
The term 'Coiled' refers to the manufacture of the Boxer design of cartridge case which was made of coiled brass sheet (foil) that was reinforced at the basal end and rivetted to an iron base by the use of a holllow rivet into which the primer was inserted.

A peculiarly 'British' form of cartridge manufacture which was used in the early days of breechloading. The British service cartridges .577 Snider and the .577/450 Martini-Henry rounds were made this way for several years before solid drawn brass cases became the norm. Many early British sporting cartridges were also manufactured this way.

Catridges made in this manner were rather weak in construction and very easily damaged, fouling in rifles often meant that the base of the cartridge were pulled off the case during extraction and the rifle was effectively useless until the remains of the case was removed. (rather difficult to do under battle conditions). Despite these disadvantages, the coiled cartridge case rounds were used for many years before being withdrawn. The Zulu Wars were fought using this type of ammunition including the battle at Rourk's Drift.

Withdrawn ball ammunition of this form was converted to 'Blank' rounds and was used in ceremonial and training purposes.

Harry

With out a chamber cast, you are working blind.

From Cartriges of the World.
"This cartridge was designed by Jeffery about 1898. It is a shortened version of the old black powder .450/.400 which has a quarter inch longer case. The two are not interchangeable. According to John Taylor in his excellent book, African Rifles and Cartridges, the short case was brought out because the longer black powder number had a tendency to stick in the chamber after firing. The .450/.400 Nitro-Express 3" was designed for smokeless cordite powder; it has never been available available with black. Prior to the .375 H&H Magnum it was one of the most popular and effective all-around calibers used in Africa."

Bullet dia .408, Neck Dia .434, Shoulder Dia .518, Base dia .613, Case length 3.00, OAL 3.75, Kynoch primer 40. It was loaded with 70 grains of Cordite. for MV 2150 and ME of 4930

http://www.cybertorpedo.com/africanhunter/classcart/450_400_nitro_express_01.htm

http://www.reloadersnest.com/frontpage.asp?CaliberID=154

http://www.reloadersnest.com/detail.asp?CaliberID=154&LoadID=10205

Pete

Geno, see the cartridge photo below.

http://www.ammo-one.com/500BPEleyCoiled.html

Great link Mike, any idea how "No. 6" BP compares to todays different grading scales?

Mark

Thank's, I saw this coiled cartrige allready, but didn't realized it's Coiled!
Well, I made the owner to make chamber cast ASAP, but now I'm pretty sure it's 450-3&1/4 NFBP double rifle. The owner bought cases from some US company named Jackson-Jaxon-Jaison... whatever and I believe this cases have to be formed by correct dies again to match 450-3&1/4.