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A friend just picked up a nice Baker Sterling single trap gun, made around 1912. This is the model that has the barrel and vent rib milled out of the same piece of steel. The bottom of the barrel shows the Krupp fluss stahl -essen [sp?] markings which is not uncommon, but it also shows the Belgian marking LLH. Neither mark is the type of mark "added" to make the gun seem better. How do the LLH and Krupp marks relate to each other ? Did LLH sell Krupp products at one time ?

Mr. Hallquist:

Those would have been Lochat-Habran's tubes probably of Cockerill steel and I would say almost zero chance of a relationship between Krupp & Lochat-Habran, but the possiblity still exist. There were bins of barrels and one was pulled from the lot and if a client wanted Krupp tubes then they stamped Krupp on the tube, whatever kind of tube. Krupp steel may have been imported into the U.S. of A. in block form of the process was overseen here by a Krupp official. However I am open to any info to the contrary.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

For now I'm going to yell "calf rope" and say that there was a relationship between LLH, and other Belgian makers, and Krupp purely from the marks of several examples:


With the exception that the Belgian maker's sourced Suhl for Krupp tubes but for now I don't see any provisional German marks.

At least it gives a direction in which to continue research.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Thanks, Raimey, I have seen the LLH marks with other marks, too. Just never thought to take pics or follow up until now. Just a feeling that LLH must have sold more in barrels than just what they made themselves.

1906 Baker Advert

http://books.google.com/books?id=NNJNAAA...;q=&f=false

Info hits that American makers imported all their tubes "in the rough".

Amateur Sportsman 1910 on tubes "Gun Barrels Past and Present": http://books.google.com/books?id=m5kXAAA...;q=&f=false

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Well, I'll eat my hat in that a hugh probability exits for a licensing agreement between Krupp steel and FN circa 1900 for FN to use Krupp steel ingots to manufacture rifled tubes for Mauser rifles. I haven't found the licensing agreement but am certain that it exits. So LLH, Lucian Clement, Sl and possibly others either had a similar agreement, which I am skeptical of, or were under the FN umbrella licensing agreement. Liege and surrounding areas were a hugh example of tube production and it was just simple economics for Krupp to allow their product to be the one to be transformed in the backyard of Cockerill into tubes by the Liege craftsmen, who were pretty much a tube source to the world, maybe with a few exceptions. At this time most of the American makers, Hunter Arms, Ithaca, Parker Bros., Lefever Arms, J. Stevens, N.R. Davis & Baker Gun & Forging Company - http://books.google.com/books?id=XW0vAAA...;q=&f=false p.2702) were complaining about S, D&G's importing tactics while they were also importing tubes, more than likely in the rough, from the craftsmen in an around Liege. Considering the Dingley Tariff Bill of 1897 and the Krupp-FN licensing agreement(and possibly others in Liege), then possibly without exception, post 1900(maybe a little earlier)all American made shotguns with Krupp steel stamped tubes were sourced from Liege/LLH, etc. The Krupp composition was the same but it was the talent of the tube maker in the end product. So what is a "genuine Krupp Steel" tube? And why pray-tell would they advertise/tout it as a "genuine Krupp Steel" tube; maybe because there were examples which were stamped Krupp, but were not or was it that it was a Krupp steel tube not made in Suhl/Germany? I can't say but the steel components across the board should be the same.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Raimey, good finds. It seems that the shotgun steel barrel blank info is coming to life. Would be nice if someone out there has pics of Krupp barrels with other markings on the undersides.

Is it possible to print a page in the Google Books finds like page 92 of the Hardware Dealer mag. ? I tried , but was not successful.

As far as I know you have to download the book in PDF format and then print the page that corresponds with page 92.

I too would like too see other examples with Krupp stamps.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Baker "N" Grade Krupp in a 1907 advert: http://books.google.com/books?id=POUXAAA...els&f=false

Looks as "The Simplex" by Tobin also had a Krupp tube option - 1905 - http://books.google.com/books?id=SxgLAAA...els&f=false

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Raimey, yes, the Tobin company offered Krupp barrels in both Norwich and Woodstock, Ont. They offered DeMoya Fluid steel in higher grades as well. Frank Major Tobin's personal gun had Krupp barrels, and although I think they did say they offered the Whitworth barrels [memory] his gun is Krupp. His gun is from the Norwich production. I guess he could have had any barrel product he wanted. The Tobin Grade 55 offered DeMoya fluid steel, with plated internal parts. I have never seen or heard of a Tobin with other than Fluid steel barrels.

Craftsmen attached their marks pretty much as a means of keeping track of who is to be paid as well as liability. For now I think that Krupp tubes out of Germany will have a Shilling forge mark or similar tube maker's mark while the Belgian Krupp tubes will of course have Belgian tube maker's marks, which may have been removed, for whatever reason, or partially removed during the finishing of the longarm in the U.S. of A., a country that didn't have a set of proof laws. I think the following gives insight as to the cottage industry aspect of gunmaking on the continent and was similar among other gunmaking centers.

"One of the great advantages arising from this triple proof is that each class of workmen has a direct incentive to only turn out, or accept, really reliable material, for no one who has worked upon the gun is paid for his labour unless the arm passes the three proofs satisfactorily. Thus, if the barrels burst at the first proof(viz., that of each barrel separately), the barrel-maker loses the cost of his labour and the material, for he is obliged to replace the burst barrels without any indemnity. Should the barrels burst at the second proof, it is not the barrel-maker alone who suffers, but the solderer was well, who also loses the price of his labour because he had not examined the pair or barrels carefully enough before working on them. If the gun bursts at the third proof, all those who have worked upon the gun, from the barrel-maker upwards, lose the benefit of their labour; and thus, as I have said, each class of workmen has a direct personal incentive to turn out a really reliable gun."

from 1891 in:
http://books.google.com/books?id=-X3NAAA...;q=&f=false

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse