doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Bought a Baby.

Well, a Baby Bretton. I bought it this morning. It is a 12 bore over/under, 26 1/2 inch barrel, multi choke but with only two tubes which appear to be aroung improved cylinder and 1/4 choke. The choke tubes are marked 'L' and 'LA'; anyone any idea what this stands for? The total weight of the gun is a mere 5 pounds 5 ounces. The chamber length is 2 3/4" but I shall be confining myself to nothing heavier than 7/8 th. ounce and maybe the light 13/16 th. ounce loads. The gun doesn't look as if it has been used much. It came into a local gun shop some time ago following the death of the gun's owner and has now been released for sale. I paid just undere £300. Lagopus.....

Nice example of the weird lightweight. I would love to have one for about a month, but maybe not forever. I forget where the safety is on these things. Where is it? Roger Barlow introduced us to these back in the sixties, but we have heard little of them since. Has anyone seen a factory catalog or a gunsmith manual on this gun?

Can't find a safety, but that is not unusual on some Continental guns. I have only ever come across one of these before in an English gun shop. This one was in first class order and reasonably priced so I got tempted. I will probably use it for squirrels and rabbits. Can't say that I needed it but just thought it a fun thing to play around with. If someone has more info or a manual for the gun I would be most interested to learn more. Also if more choke tubes are available. Lagopus.....

Lagopus I sold that one I had 2 months ago for $1000. But, it had the original case and was a 3 barrel set with one set rifled. Mine was a lower grade. I'd say you got a deal. But they are my frontrunner for the world's ugliest O/U.

I was expecting a small bore Purdey or a Boss or a vintage Coggie and what do we get, pictures of……well; he should have paid you to take it off his hands and have it disposed of properly in the nearest land fill.

Treblig, I have got to agree with you there. I got the vintage Purdey, a hammer gun made in 1869, and I got the vitage Coggie, a boxlock ejector made in 1892 - the Boss still eludes me. I hadn't got anything French and I didn't own an O/U. I don't know how long I will keep this one for. I just thought 'what the heck' and went for it. It will all depend on how it shoots.

Mike, do you know what the choke tube markings 'L' and 'LA' mean? I don't suppose that you still have the manual? To remove the barrels do I remove the choke tubes, unscrew the knurled nut on the bit near the muzzle that divides the barrels and then unscrew them from the receiver? Not had chance to play with it yet. Can you tell me any more about them, such as when they were made? Any information would be useful at this stage. Thanks. Lagopus.....

Lagopus the manual went with it. Mine was also made in 1963 so it didn't have the connector on the muzzle end. The barrels were free floating on that end. My barrels unscrewed by hand one at a time so I'd say you would have to remove the barrel band somehow.

I did a search here but like usual I couldn't find the post about it. It should be here somewhere.

I thought that I might be out of luck with the manual; thanks for the reply. It was a neat outfit that you sold. The serial number of mine is 30864, any idea of date? I have only ever come across one other for sale here and the engraving, if I remember correctly, was the same as mine. The condition was not so good though. I always thought that if I see another I would buy it to see what it was like to use. Thanks. Lagopus.....

Hello Lagopus and nice buy,

Surely the makers can give you more info on the Baby:

Makers Website

Happy rabbit hunting!

JC

These guns are not uncommon in France. I saw at least three a few weeks ago in Paris where I always do a round of my favorite armuriers. Popular for hunting woodcock with a rifled spreader choke in one barrel. If I had to spend time in a jungle and carry my own survival crap this is the gun I'd want. There's bugger all to go wrong and it works fine with a sling.

It looks like they all have barrel hangers now. Review your high school French and order a technical manual. No fuss, no muss.

There's bugger all to go wrong and it works fine with a sling. [/quote]

More important is that they are so ugly that no one will ever steal it, even in a third world country. Your friends would destroy any pictures or records of you and that gun after your death, your ex wife would have you buried with it.

Thanks JayCee, I didn't know if they were still available.

Sorry Eightbore I did German, Spanish and Latin at school; French is consider the Devil's language here. The only French words I know are Agincourt, Crecey, Poitiers and Waterloo. :-) Lagopus.....

JayCee I did a Google translation. http://www.bretton-gaucher.com/f_pres.htm Still not much better informed. I'm sure that they will understand English if I print it out in Capital letters. :-) Lagopus.....

Those crazy French. They continue to amaze me when it comes to design.

A fellow in my gun club used to drive a Citroen Maserati. I understand it is a quick little bugger, but I managed to restrain myself from ever asking for a test drive. If I ever find a Darne with an intelligent stock, I may take the plunge.

It looks prettier than a lot of Kreighoffs I have seen.

I'll bet you'd have to look very long and very hard to find one of these with evidence of heavy usage. The combination of ultra light weight and heavier 12 gauge shells would quickly wear on all but the most recoil-immune among us.

That said, it's very nicely done, if a bit out of the ordinary. For the price of a Stevens in decent condition (over here in the U.S., anyway), you have a far more interesting and much better finished sample of the firearms art.

Let us know how you do with it after you've shot it a bit. I've been fascinated by them since seeing Gun Digest articles from the 60s about them.

I have a more recent sample....Mine actually has a safe!

However the gun needs to be off safe to load and unload with the action cocked! Otherwise the action lever will not rotate enough to allow the gun to open.

Also, In a lapse of judgement about two years ago; I shot two rounds of skeet with mine using the Winchester X-tra Lite trap loads....Even with these loads it's a handful to hang on to and it does recoil briskly. So briskly that the little piece of steel that retains the forend wood yanked the screw out of the aluminum receiver. Now it's heli-coiled with a larger and coarser stainless screw.....so it will stay put!

I'll take a flyer at the "L", lagopus. The French have never been big on choke markings, but I have seen a few marked "lisse". Literally, that means smooth. It's cylinder on a shotgun. I can't recall reading anything where the French used "lisse" with an adjective starting with a as the equivalent of our improved cylinder, but I suppose that'd be a possibility for "LA".

Bonjour Larry,

You are spot on with the "L": it does stand for "lisse" or "cylinder"
The "LA" stands for "lisse amélioré" or Improved Cylinder (.010" in 12 bore).

JC

If I delivered a baby that ugly I would have slapped its mother!!!!

Larry, here is a webpage in French with some info on choke denominations:
Chokes

JC

Larry and JayCee, thanks for that. It does seem lightly choked which is perfect for what I want. Eley make a 12 bore 21 gram (13/16th. ounce) load and that is what I will try first and then graduate to a 24 gram (7/8th. ounce) load. I thought that I might use it for rabbits and generally use a 7/8th. ounce load anyway for that purpose. I will see how I get on with it. I have a female friend who is slightly built and would like to try it. I shall give it a trial first before handing it over as I don't want to be the cause of recoil shyness. If it suits her then I might just relinquish possession. It was such a novelty and the price was right so I just had to have a go with it. Lagopus.....

JayCee, thanks. I've never seen "lisse ameliore". I have a few books in French on shotguns, one of which includes a list of terms. It gives "lisse", but in the section on choke, refers to the British "fractional" terms--which show up in your link as well.

Lagopus, the golden rule says the weight of load charge in grams has to be equal to 1/100 of gun weight (in grams also). Your baby's weight is aprx. 2300 grams, so recoil comfortable load would be no more than 23 grams.
Enjoy and count days, when you'll be tired with playing and sell this thing

Lagopus, you are welcome.
The Babies are guns designed for carrying around a lot and shooting a little,
mainly for becasse and even with shallow rifled barrels for dispersion. It should be
efficient for walking around hunting rabbits. It would also be fitting for the Baby to
have a mum, ;-)

Larry, amélioré does mean improved, so... I was also told that an "IP" designation
means 3/4 choke.

JC

Here is a full sized Bretton in .22/12 gauge. Unusual combination in an even more unusual configuration. I've somewhat desired one of the Brettons since reading Roger Barlow's articles years ago - maybe a Baby in 20?

http://www.gunsinternational.com/Bretton-Combo-2212-Gauge.cfm?gun_id=100085971

Well if anyone goes over to England to hunt or shoot with our most distinguished member Mr. Lagopus you know what gun you're gettin!!!
"Could I use your Purdey; maybe, sir......."
"Hmmm, let me think........NO"

You either need a 5lb 12 gauge, or, you don't. At the point that you do need one, what it looks like is a somewhat secondary notion. I use a 30" barrel Italian hammerless, 5lb, single shot 12 for hunting grouse on snowshoes. The longish barrel makes it an effective balance pole, and the notion of needing more than one shot for this type of hunting, is far fetched, at best.
You likely wouldn't think that gun was pretty, either. But, it works.
Best,
Ted

Treblig, you would be welcome to take your pick provided you didn't break it.

Ted, I didn't need it, I just sucummed to temptation. That single Italian 12 bore, is it a fully folding Bernadelli by any chance? Lagopus.....

Lagopus, I'd be happy to use the Baby if we go out for woodcock or rabbits
when you invite me ;-)

JC

The gun is a folding Companion from Gardone, Val Trumpia. Not sure who built it. My Mom gave it to me for Christmas, when I was 14. The idea was my Dad's, however-guns weren't my Mom's department in the family.
The recoil on my skinny adolescent frame put me off shotguns for a few years. That isn't a problem, today.
Best,
Ted

Sounds like the one that I am familiar with if the way to open it is to slide back on the trigger guard and it will have a fixed forend and sling swivels. I had one many years ago; and you're right, they do kick. They were available in .410 as well but these appear to be scarce. Lagopus.....

Uh, negative on the trigger guard thingy there, Lagopus. This has an underlever forward of the triggerguard that is pulled back to cock and open the gun. There is a half-moon section of wood hogged out in the forend to allow the gun to fold.
The best thing is it is a quality, hammerless, single, a tough thing to find in the US market, dominated by real junk 'ala the Winchester hammer 840 built in Canada.
It is not an especially attractive gun. But, it works quite well. They were available in all gauges, including 28 and 16 (there is a 16 on Gunbroker now, just go to single shots and search "Companion"). Not sure why someone would want a .410.
Best,
Ted

Hmm. I've seen "plein" for full choke, which makes perfect sense. 3/4 would be improved modified. I can see the P in "IP" standing for plein, but in that case, what's the I stand for? A modifier of some sort, but that'd usually come after rather than before, as in LA (lisse ameliore). I'd vote for PP (presque plein)--almost full.

Working from memory here, but I seem to recall back when Garcia was the Berretta importer for the USA they carried those little folding single bbls under the Berretta name. After they no longer had the Berretta contract they continued to import what appeared to be a very similar nade gun under the "Companion" name Ted mentioned, but like him I have no idea who actually made it.
Thet also continued for a while to import SxS's under the Silver & Golden Snipe logo which names had been previously used on their Berretta line.

That folder could possibly have been a Pedretti. Lagopus.....

In addition to the folding single, Bernardelli also made a folding double.

I imported these into the USA many years ago. I fact the one that Dave Webber has I beleive has my name on it. The early ones did not have an traditional safety. The release served as the safety. The later ones has a push button on the side of the receiver which is what Dave has. They are had barrels bands at the end that also had the front sight. I did quite well selling these. I never imported the blue receiver guns, only the deluxe grade.

Best Regards


John Boyd