doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com looking for my first side by side...

Larry,
A Darne is much more coveted in Europe than it is here. And, a Spanish gun is more coveted in Spain than here.

Manufacturers understand that. Exports are priced accordingly. An R15 was about US $2000 more, in France, at the time I was doing it, than here. You can call whatever you want, but, that is a fact.

My point on the 311, which, you've managed to miss several times now, is the quality difference between a pre and post war 311 doesn't matter much since it is a $500 dollar first double. In either case, they will sell for about what you paid for them, any manufacturing changes aside.

A friend recently purchased a used, cased, 12 gauge 701, and I can assure you, it cost a hell of a lot more than your idea of $2000. If it hadn't, I would have bought it.

I'm sure you went to gunbroker and elsewhere, and saw BSS 12 gauges for the same $1400-$1600 asking prices that I have. The same guns, the same prices, for the same past couple of years. Anyone can ask anything they want, but, they aren't selling for that.

And, you know it, too. You also know that the cased William Powell and Son boxlock 12 I bought well used in 1981 appreciated more than your new BSS example between that time and when I sold it in 2005. As did my MacNaughton boxlock.

Both, good quality, used, British boxlocks. Sold without advertising, at my local club just by showing up, and shooting them.

Those BSS sporters are few and far between. Browning collectors, aren't. That might explain the price difference better, since, we have at least three people, in just this post, that didn't think too highly of the BSS trigger.

Did they put a better trigger in the Sporter?

I think the Beretta is a better gun, period, and the options that were available to Beretta buyers in the era when both the BSS and the Beretta were sold were just icing on the cake. I think the American hardware store guns are a better value and a better use of limited funds, in this case, and a good learning gun for someone new to the double game. Double guns aren't for everyone. I think the Browning BSS has a well deserved reputation of having a crappy trigger, backed up here in this post, and it is asthetically unpleasing, cumbersome, and a poor choice for a field gun.

I also think you would stand a better chance of selling, rather than talking about it, good quality British boxlocks vs any NIB BSS, today.

Good luck with the A5, Larry.

Best,
Ted

Burp....

Ted, I'll remember your Darne information should I decide to buy one. Spain . . . I think there are posters here who have gone to Spain and had guns made for them, buying them for less than it would cost from an American importer.

311 quality doesn't matter much . . . "As Savage trimmed costs in the 1970's and 1980's, the Model 311 suffered. The edges were left sharp to the touch on the action bodies, parts broke routinely, the stock and forend were made of stained hardwood and trigger pulls became clunky." Don Zutz, "Grand Old Shotguns". And Zutz was actually a 311 fan . . . before the guns were cheapened. Also, the same complaint you level at the BSS (all ST/AE) can be directed at the 311 (all DT/extractors). No choices.

Ted, a Scott 701 is not a 700, any more than a Bowood is. (Your computer will also do research, in addition to posting here.) At the same time (1979) a Model 700 listed for 919 pounds in England, a 701 listed for 2359 pounds. 2 1/2 times the list price . . . nope, you're right. Sure would've been a bargain at $2,000. But the under $2,000 Model 700 selling price to which I referred isn't "my idea". Saw it happen, at the UP SxS Shoot. And since dealers list several at $2500, while under $2,000 is a good buy, it's scarcely unrealistic.

Once more you're back to apples and oranges. Buying used, one can always make more money in doubleguns (if the market cooperates) than buying new--unless you maybe get something like the Parker Repro closeout deal of a few years back. Had you bought a Parker, Fox or Elsie in 1980, you would've also made more money than buying a BSS new . . . except maybe a 20ga Sporter. But you couldn't buy them new then, and the only Brummie boxlocks you could buy new don't sell for much more now, used, than they did then, new.

BSS Sporters few and far between? Again Ted, computer not working well, except to post here? Check gunsinternational.com. Of the 40+ Miroku-made Browning sxs listed there--including a few sidelocks and Grade II's (both of which come far closer to the "few and far between" description), I find 14 Sporters. And that's just by looking at either the ad titles or the pictures. Might be more. But they're only hard to find if you don't bother looking. And unless they're NIB, they're hardly collectible. Better trigger in the Sporter? Well, it's selective versus the earlier nonselective version, but I believe all BSS made after the Sporter was introduced had the SST. You'll always find complaints about ST's on sxs. I wrote an article on Miroku-made doubles a few years back and inquired here (and on Shooting Sportsman) for opinions. Most of those on the BSS trigger were positive. Fewer complaints, as I recall, than the SKB SST when I asked about them. But I consider both to be pretty decent.

Whether a hardware store gun is a better "beginner's" double is a matter of opinion. Most have DT's, and without question, some "beginners"--assuming they're switching from a pump or auto--would sooner have a ST. And some, like the later 311's, are pretty crappy. I'd certainly take a 20ga Sporter as a field gun over any hardware store gun. And dollar for dollar, compared to a 20ga Trojan, Elsie or Ithaca Field, or Sterlingworth, they're not an unreasonable buy. And they do have the SST/AE combo, which the American classics don't have . . . unless you want to pay through the nose for a rare and collectible version.

Larry, we KNOW there is at least one poster who ageed the Spanish ordered gun was more money than the US spec gun. No speculation from you needed.
In Europe, it tends to be upper middle class, and rich folks that hunt. The guns sell for more there, because they can. Which, is the second time I have explained that to you. You sent a letter to me detailing how we could make a fortune importing used guns from France (on my license) circa 1995 or so, do you recall? Since the asking prices on used, French guns was quite high compared to what the same gun was bringing here (I demonstrated with a second hand, middle of the road condition Charlin, that sold for about 3 large, in St. Etienne, several months after I sold a beauty here for $800) I pretty much shot your idea down. Remember, Larry?

By the way, if you, or anyone else ever seriously considered a new Darne, it sucks to be you-the good deals, are all over.

I guess I was thinking of the BSS sidelock when I said "few and far between". My bad. That doesn't change my opinion of the whole lot of them. Better guns are out there. Cheaper, too.
If you HAVE to have a single trigger, you better save more money, or, a better idea, really, find a different style of gun to shoot, like your A5. Double triggers are what make a double so practical. If you are just starting in the game, you might as well start with what's most practical. And get used to it, right from the beginning.
There has been a single trigger Western Arms 12 for sale for about a year in Gun List. $500, listed as high 90% condition. Doesn't seem "through the nose" to me.
Had one just like it, and it had a better trigger than any BSS I ever handled, and, it would seem, better than a few posters here also experienced with the BSS. I'll go a bit further and recommend it above and beyond any BSS.

You like a BSS. I, don't. I have my reason's, and they weren't pulled out of thin air. And, I wouldn't recommend a gun I wouldn't own to anyone. You can recommend whatever you like, Larry. If you have a good reason to prefer the BSS to anything, go for it. But, as I posted before, once the "dollar for dollar" quote comes out, I turn suspect.

It's come out twice on this post alone, both times in reference to the BSS.
Best,
Ted

Ted, you keep trying to dodge around the issue--by confusing both the 701 and the Bowood (both significantly higher grade than a Model 700)--that dollar for dollar, a BSS was a much better buy in 1980 than a Model 700. Dealer prices are right there on the 700's--all you need to do is look. And thanks to the information I gave you, you know both the list price of a 700 in 1980, and what I paid a dealer for a new BSS. Now . . . even if those "overpriced" BSS only sell for $800, that's 2x your 1980 investment. For a Model 700 to be 2x your 1980 investment, it'd have to sell for $4,000 or better. Personally, I think they're excellent buys at $2500 today if in good shape . . . but that's pretty much what they sold for 30 years ago. There's your "dollar for dollar", and there's no way to argue with it. Which you'd rather have? Why, I'd much rather have the 700 . . . for which I would have paid 5x as much in 1980, and for which I'd pay about 2x as much today, compared to a PG/BT BSS 12. Again, there it is, dollar for dollar.

Sorry, but I don't remember what you told me about used Darnes. However, I do remember a used Charlin 16 I found in Dijon, summer of 1996. Would've cost me $800, not $3,000. Regretted not buying it when I got home (I'd already purchased an Army & Navy 12 in England), called the dealer, found that it had sold.

As far as the European market in general goes . . . perhaps things have changed, a whole bunch, since my old "Buxton's Foreign Firearms" was printed. Example: AyA Model 37 (high grade OU): $418 in Madrid; $982 Stateside. Let's try a different country. Bernardelli Roma 3: $113 in Italy, $239 here. And yet another maker, Beretta: 409PB, $102 in Italy. Silver Hawk (same gun if with double triggers), $167.75 Stateside. How about another country: Sauer Model 60, $145 in Germany, $198 in the States. Darn, a guy would go broke taking advantage of all those sweetheart deals on imported guns!

Matter of fact, Ted, I'm in your corner on the DT thing--but a lot of folks aren't. And especially a lot of beginners aren't. You look at a BSS 20ga Sporter, for which you may well pay close to $2,000 . . . but tell me, what's out there now, new, with those same features (SST/AE), for less money, that's a better gun? Nothing new for sure, far as I know. And not much used. Well, my personal preference would run to an Ithaca SKB 280E because it's lighter, but a good one of those, 20ga, is likely going to hit mid-teens in price too.

So . . . now that we've determined "dollar for dollar" to be true vs Brummie boxlocks, 1980 vintage . . . we can certainly disagree on how good a gun the BSS is or isn't. However, the current DGJ article is certainly quite praiseworthy. Other than the 12 being on the heavy side (so is a Model 21 with similar features, but lots of people like them--and seriously pay through the nose!), what's not to like? Are you going to find a better ST on a Spanish gun? On a Darne, maybe? On a Brit gun, for that matter? If a guy's looking ST, then I'll recommend the Ithaca SKB's over the BSS, simply because you can get one cheaper, and they're lighter. But a "90%" Long Range with a ST . . . if it hasn't sold in a year, how's that different than BSS 12's not selling for $1200 or so? Overpriced for condition, maybe, in the case of the Long Range? Since there aren't many ST Long Ranges out there, and since there are some Ithaca collectors, I'd think it would have been snapped up had it been that good.

In summary, I don't think the BSS is a great gun. I'd go with a Miroku-made Daly and save the difference . . . but try to find one, ST/AE. But I think you're overly negative on the subject, and your many erroneous comparisons of mismatched Scott models show how far you'll go to make your point. Next thing you know, you'll be comparing a Citori to a Superposed. After all, they're both Browning OU's.

Next he'll be telling you the virtues of the Moss'n'berg pump.

Strictly IMO- but for under $1000 I'd buy a later series Ithaca NID 12 field grade (w/o the cocking indicator pins) DT- ejectors sure, but extractors are just as useful unless you are invited to a driven bird shoot in LimeyLand--My gunsmith rates that series Ithaca as being as durable as a Fox or a M21 boxlock. Ithaca marked their chokes with a number code, also gauge- many other gun makers from that era didn't.

Why buy a $500 "beater" that you'll try to unload later on the "greater fool marketing theory" or spend big bucks getting it "upgraded" plus all the time it is with the gunsmith is time it won't be in your hands being used-and you getting used to it.

Spend the extra dime now-save the dollar you'd spend later. And for the gent from the First State (I have sister in Wilmington) wow- you sure see some good prices out there- ditto Major Brian and the $800 Parker Hinge Pin Sterlingworth 12- area dealer has a 1911 12 Sterlingworth pin hinge ejector gun- 30" barrels, Hawkins pad "on consignment" at $1750- has had it for 3 years, it's getting dusty on the shelf- but the owner saw the article about F&S shotgun editor Phil B. buying a similar Fox from Scheel's for $1800 and then having it "facelifted" and he's convinced his weathered old Sterly is worth that kinda $.. I'd buy it in a heartbeat for $800-but not for $1750!!

Foxy, it's amazing considerng there were only 2000 "pin" SWs made or wasn't it 20,000. The asking prices are all over the lot but I haven't seen an eary Sterly "Parker pin" gun recently which was close to all there for less than 1000. Always a limited pool of buyers at estate auctions and consignment racks and things slip thru. Dealer had this one from "cash for old gun" walkin which means he had absolutely nothing in it and he's had considerably more than absolutely nothing from me over the yrs so there's sometimes a layer of grease which encourages the wheels of commerce.

jack

These are affordable on second hand market and are very suitable for upland game: Franchi 48AL 20ga 28ga, Ithaca 37 16ga 20ga, Remington 31 16ga 20ga, early 50s 870 16ga, 870 LW 20ga 28ga, Model 12 16ga. These are superior to anything in sxs you're likely to find for $500. If you must go with double for $500 or less look for Marlin 90 20ga with separated barrels.
If I needed upland gun I would save money and get me 16ga Browining Citori. Local shop has one NIB with choke tubes for under $1400. Why? Just because 16ga Browining O/U is kinda cool.

Jawohl old "Hunter Master"- around here the 16, as far as shell availability, is about as popular as the Cambridge MA SWAT Team in Harlam NY--but as the 16 and 20 gauge Model 12's are on the same receiver- what's the deal with the 16 Clitori Yakasaki mfg. Browning over und blunder?? On the 20 size frame, like a sweet old BHE 16 Parker on a size O frame?? Just curious!!