doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com looking for my first side by side...

Although Ted and I wandered away from the subject with the discussion of the merits (or lack thereof) of the BSS--which, even in 12ga, is out of the poster's stated price range--I did a bit more research. I checked out all the BSS 12's and Scott 700 12's (some of which were misidentified--eliminated them) listed on Guns International. Results:

Came up with a total of 12 BSS, ranging from a low of $1,000 (with a cracked forend) to a high of $2,000 (Sporter, NIB). Eliminating those two, the average asking price on the other 10 was $1400. That's over 3x what they sold for, new, in 1980.

Found 9 correctly identified W&S 700's in 12ga. Eliminated one at $5500 (dealer may have been inhaling a controlled substance on that one!), and one with a custom restock at $3850. That left 7 guns, low of $2500, high of $3800. Average: Just over $3,000. Those guns cost 919 pounds, new, in 1980 (before Scott changed ownership and switched over from the 700 series to the later Bowood etc). Figuring the pound at $2.40, a new 700 cost just over $2200 in 1980--minus import duties etc. Which means one can still buy a 12ga Model 700, used, in decent shape, for about what one cost new 30 years ago. Although I consider that one heck of a buy on a solid, modern Brummie boxlock, comparing what they cost new, a BSS would have been a way better investment.

I can't believe that this thread has attracted so many trolls. Can't keep to the subject, can you boys?

Larry,
It was ME, way back when, that said the 12 gauge BSS guns seldom sell for more than $1000. Except, it seems, when the numbers don't match. It was also ME who pointed out that the 20s are always priced higher, and SIT, looking stupid, in dealers inventory for ages when the prices get up to where you imagine they will sell ($2000). There may have been a sap that coughed up that money two years ago, but, do you think he could get it today, for the non-sporter BSS in 20?

Not a prayer, dude. Not even in Iowa. Not even, from you.

A 311 in 16, built since WWII will have modern stock dimensions, usually. Why don't you regale us (one more time) with your tale of how economical it is to get a different stock for the low-budget American guns?
The LIST price on a Bowood was indeed 1600 Pounds in 1980. How many new guns sell for LIST, Larry?

Oh, wait, I forgot-you are from Iowa.

Sorry.

But, ignoring that, I'd STILL rather have had, new, or, used, decent condition, English boxlocks, purchased in 1980 dollars, and salted away until today to sell, rather than NIB Japanese BSS guns. Think about it-which gun would you have rather actually USED all those years, a Bowood or a BSS? I guess I know why you would have NIB BSS guns to sell. ICK!
The "Tossup" (your words) between the BSS roll pins and the Western Arms iron frame ignores the fact the Western Arms will cost about half what the Browning does-is that considered a toss-up in Iowa?

Oh, wait-Sorry, again.

Best,
Ted
PS What is the deal with you on ejectors and single triggers? There are a majority of us here who would offer LESS money for a gun equiped with either, I suspect. And a guy with $500 looking for his first double will figure out soon enough he can live without either. This may be the first time I'm in agreement with PJ- the Beretta, depending on the configuration, since the beavertails on those guns often seem more like canoe paddles. I've seen some that were well under 1K, not recently, but, they are 10 times the gun the BSS could ever be.

Another one just paddled by....

As I said, you wont find a decent Sterly for less than 800 bucks and now a days, thats almost hard to do. Sterlys are getting up there.
But I still agree with the fact that 500.00 is too low a budget to really start out with for a decent SxS.

Whoa, Ted . . . I used the same source (Guns International) to compare asking prices on BSS 12's and Scott 700 12's. First off, I'm sorry you didn't know the difference between a 700 and a Bowood . . . but seeing as how I explained that to you (about 700 pounds, new, in 1980), you at least have a bit more to go on.
Second, it's interesting that you don't think BSS 12's often sell for more than $1,000, when I couldn't find a single one listed under $1100--and the average was $1400+. You buy or sell a lot of BSS 12's maybe? As far as that goes, comparing to the average of $3,000 for a used 700 12ga, I definitely know of one--excellent condition, in the maker's case--that sold for under $2,000 at the UP Shoot last month. So if the $1400 average is too high for actual selling prices, then it would appear the $3,000 is as well.

Most folks know that the older a Stevens double, the better the quality. The newer, the more fencepost-like they become. You may get more modern dimensions with a post-war gun, but personally, if I wanted a Stevens, I'd look pre-war--and pick up one of those inexpensive stocks.

As far as how many guns sell for LIST . . . well Ted, the 1600 and 900 pound prices were over in Merry Olde, not here in the former colonies. Don't you suppose there's going to be a bit of a markup--duty, importer's profit, etc? I mean, I bet I can buy a Darne cheaper in France than I can from the guy who imports them Stateside.

Ted, you're a confused fellow when it comes to economics. We've already established that a Scott 700 can be had, now, for about what one cost new in 1980. I couldn't have afforded one, new, back then--but I was certainly able to afford a BSS Sporter 20 for $400. And I'd certainly make more money selling the BSS Sporter 20 today, and perhaps upgrading to a Scott 700, after having bought it for $400 30 years ago. I don't think I want you handling my investments!

Long Range vs BSS . . . let's see: checkering, ST, ejectors, vs no checkering, DT, extractors. All those features, Ted, add to the market value of a gun. If you don't want them, fine--you can get by cheaper. As I said earlier, I'd sooner take an SKB 100 (even though I like the BSS ST better) because it's lighter and I don't need the ejectors. But you won't find any gunmakers that don't charge for those additional features--because they cost extra money in the manufacturing process. (Can you order me an uncheckered Darne, malleable iron frame, at a bargain basement price?)

Beretta Silver Hawk 10x the gun as a BSS? Ted, if I've told you once, I've told you a million times: avoid such hyperbole! Handled one the other day. (Have owned them in the past, in fact.) With a BT, like the standard BSS, they're equally clunky. The one I saw was marked at $1200. Same dealer had a 12ga BSS Sporter for $500 more. The Sporter felt a heck of a lot better . . . plus it had those extra bells and whistles (ST and ejectors). Irrelevant whether you want them or not, but they're like options on a car: if you do want them, you have to pay for them.

Returning to the subject at hand: Brian, I have to respectfully disagree. You might find one of Ted's Nitros or Long Ranges, or a Hunter Fulton, in 20ga for that kind of money. I bought an Ithaca SKB 200E Skeet for about $700 not long ago, which is getting pretty close to the budget in question--and a very nice Miroku 12 for $400. Make that a 20, add another $100. Choices are a lot more limited at $500, especially if one insists on a 20 or 16, but there are some decent ones out there. Perhaps a few more these days than not so long ago, given the economy. But it will take some looking.

Jeez. Poor guy asks a simple question: what can I get as a first side-by-side, 20 or 16 gauge, have about $500 bucks to spend. It takes seven pages and the usual pissing matches by the usual suspects to say what could have been said in one page:

1) Stevens 311 or maybe a Fox Model B
2) Nitro Special
3) Ithaca Long Range
4) Maybe a Fulton or one of the derivitives thereof
5) A few sundry low-end Spanish guns, etc.

Or, you can wait around and hope to get something that's perceived to be better for the same money, or perhaps a bit more. Meanwhile, the guys shooting the above guns will have had a hell of a lot of fun, and killed a lot of birds.

Larry,
My Darnes were always much cheaper than you could get them in France. My overhead, as would have been an English importers overhead, circa 1980, compared to the manufacturer, was a pittance by comparison.

Think about it.

The 311s built prior to about 1960 don't suffer much in quality compared to pre-war (question? How could they?) and the stock dimensions will work for most modern day upright hominids. Thats what $500 gets you.

You have to pay for options FROM A DEALER, Larry-private party sales, even in Iowa, have more wiggle room, and a lower price, as a matter of course. Unless you don't look.

Beretta didn't TELL you how you were going to buy the gun, Larry, unlike Browning-want double triggers? Go for it. Want a swan neck stock and a splinter? All your's. No Ejectors? No problem.

Ten times the gun Larry, just getting what you want, instead of being sold something you don't, ejectors, single trigger, POLYUREATHANE, or, whatever.

Only Hyperbole in Iowa, Larry.

Every gun today is asking price, Larry. It's sad, but, you can't benchmark prices off anything in the past 6 months. What shows up as sold in an internet auction quite possibly didn't go anywhere.
Best,
Ted

Good evening Ted,
I may be overly sensitive but I take exception to your snide comment. You've yet to forward me your fax number so I may forward you my PPT information. Mis-serialized BSS at $1,100.

Mr.Brown, I'd be happy to send it to you if you'ld like to wave it at Ted as more evidence that he may not be the last word on BSS virtues and values.

Best,
Bob