doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Schlegelmilch Gunmaker & Thieme & Schlegelmilch

I’ve read that Thieme & Schlegelmich was founded by Louis Schlegelmilch, Heinrich Schlegelmilch and possibly others but it was founded by Adolph Thieme, or his son Adolph?? or Widow Thieme and Friedrich Wilhelm Schlegelmilch in 1852. I don’t think the Nimrod Gewehrfabrik was founded until circa 1888.

I haven’t connected Friedrich Wilhelm Schlegelmich and Ernst Friedrich Schlegelmilch just yet, but here is some info on Ernst Friedrich’s line. At some point earlier I think a Schlegelmilch married into the Triebel klan. August Louis(Nov. 22nd, 1868 – May 1st, 1945-Berlin) was the son of Ernst Friedrich Schlegelmilch(1820-1881) & Friederike Luise Kessler(1826-1892). August Louis(1868-1945) married Marie Bertha-Anna Bästlein(1873-1944) and had a son named Franz August Ernst Schlegelmilch(June 21st, 1897 and died in Hamburg in 1945). Gottlieb Schlegelmilch(1860-1927) was also one of Ernst Friedrich & Friederike Luise Schlegelmilch and was married to Maria Bornmüller(1862-1941), daughter of Oswald Bornmüller(1818-1895) and Matilde Jung(1825-1899). Gottlieb’s grandson Hans Wald Schlegelmilch(March 1917), son of Otto & Reinhilde Ledermann Schlegelmilch, married Lina Funk(July 2nd, 1918). Robert was also a son of Ernst Friedrich & Friederike Kessler Schlemelgich and I guess him to possibly the the eldest and to have been born circa 1850 as I assume his parents to have married in the mid to late 1840s. This Schlegelmilch klan called Heinrichs home which is about 2 miles West of Suhl. Later Robert Schlegelmilch is listed as having his residence in Meiningen which is about 12 miles West, SW of Suhl. I've read that beginning in the 1860s that German was seeing some sort of effect from Colonization and may have been the beginning of outsourcing of components and raw material. I don't think rail reached Suhl into the 1880s and evidently a Landfuhrmann was a common title which I think to mean ox cart owner or something of the like. In the mid 1800s, Heinrich and Paul Schlegelmilch were both listed as landfuhrmann(I'll accept the correct translation). Raw material and such were moved to and fro by carts and during the mid 1800s accounts give materials being moved night and day. This was just before a conflict so I assmue arms production was spooling up. For now I can't tell if one of the Schlegelmilchs folk had a mine or not or was just moving raw materials to their processing facility.

Other partnerships were:
Suhler Waffenfabrik Schlegelmilch & Metzner,
Mann & Schlegelmilch - Mechanical Engineers - Gottlieb Emil Schlegelmilch & Friedrich Alexander Mann - http://www.google.com/patents?id=jLl1AAA...y_r&cad=0_0

Gunsmith Heinrich Ernst Schlegelmilch –
http://www.google.com/patents?id=UsZgAAA...cad=0_0#PPA3,M1

http://www.google.com/patents?id=izRoAAA...cad=0_0#PPA1,M1

Robert Schlegelmilch who looks to be on the mechanical side:
http://www.google.com/patents?id=c2pOAAA...cad=0_0#PPA1,M1 . For now I don't know if there was only one Robert or possibly another.

Circa 1890 Karl Schlegelmilch is listed as a factory owner. Now there is a Carl Schlegelmilch, along with Erdmann Schlegelmilch, who were in the porcelain business.

There was a Stephan H.(Heinrich??) Schlegelmilch who was involved in machine tooling in the late 1890s.

Circa 1850 Caspar Schlegelmilch was listed as a master borer. He may have had a son named Caspar as their is a listing of Caspar Schlegelmilch post WWI, owned by Ernst Wilhelm Schlegelmilch.

If anyone has any Thieme & Schlegelmilch or other Schlegelmilch examples, I'd ask that you post pics if you can.
Here's a few from Gunbroker with one being Thieme & Dorr -
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=131716779

Thieme & Schlegelmilch - 16 bore double - http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=131987576


Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Those Schlegelmilch'es left me speachless...

I'd say this first one is over priced by about $1700 bucks and the second one by at least 3 grand.

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=131716779

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=131987576

Raimey, I have mentioned this to you before, and now I'll do it once more. You have quite obviously expended quite some large amount of time and effort to research this material you post on a fairly regular basis. It's very interesting stuff. While it may well be already published in many scattered places, it certainly is not collected and available in one central location. I know where you are finding some of it, but not all. I wish you would consider publishing all this information on old German (and Austrian, and Prussian, etc) makers, barrel makers, and barrel markings. Even if it's some self published booklet, you would find a ready market for it, IMO. I would certainly buy a copy. I know your research continues, but won't you consider publishing your compiled information? You can credit others as is necessary, but all this data is not published to my knowledge in one central source, and it needs to be.

State that it is compiled, I know you are not looking for credit for the information, but you seem to be doing ground-breaking work of sorts. This is the kind of stuff that is absolutely invaluable to German collectors. Won't you reconsider and think about publishing all this data?

My 16x16 over 8x57JR Nimrod Drilling from 1939. That's a side safety and it takes some getting used to.

Joe: That may be the first occasion of you being without words.

ChiefShotguns:

Thanks for the accolades, whether warranted or not. Your request doesn't fall on deaf ears and is not alone. What began was a small search has really taken some breadth as well as depth. It's akin to a stick of bologna wrapped in a brown paper bag: the more I unwrap, the longer it gets and I really don't know where to chop it off. I have precedures in place to file, save and archive all of the data on this site as well as other info. But to bring you up to speed, I've decided to concentrate on the barrel makers/borers/finishers of Charles Daly/Linder Daly/Lindner examples finished or sold in the U.S. of A. To track the best examples of some finishers/makers one has to look toward Berlin where the facuet of money was located and where many of the makers sourced components from the best craftsmen in Germany which were located in the Suhl area. And that's the purpose of this thread to track down some of the quality pieces attributed to one of the Schlegelmilch folk to acquire more data in an attempt to eliminate other German gunmakers with the last initial of "S".

Recoil Rob:

Thanks for the effort and I knew someone on the board had this example but I didn't save the owner's info. Any intitials on the tubes?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

hOjO,

You are still living and thinking in pre Obamanomics times!!! Don't you realize everything has gone up??? Even my Royal is now worth $30K...maybe more!!!

binko

Raimey, it make take a few days but I'll check for you.

Rob

I had the same Nimrod as in second link, but 20G. This is sample of the gun T&S were famous for. There is the 4-th bite besides double Purdey and Greener bite and known as Duck Nose.

I've read that in the late 1880s August Louis(Nov. 22nd, 1868 – May 1st, 1945-Berlin), son of Ernst Friedrich Schlegelmilch(1820-1881) & Friederike Luise Kessler(1826-1892), was dubbed Koeniglicher Ober-Buechsenmacher or the King's chief gunmaker at Spandau, which was a location near Berlin as well as Potsdam and in 1722 the King had persuaded some of the gunmakers of the utmost talent to relocate there. Later it became an arsenal. I don't want to too quickly elevate August Louis Schlegelmilch's status but he did make several bolt action arms for Kaiser Wilhelm I, I think. I'm not sure if the title of King's chief gunmaker was earned or given. But you did have to pay a yearly tribute or fee to the King or court(imagine that) to retain or use the title.


This may be a little off topic but I wanted to note it while it was on my mind, but in 1904/1905 Arthur Gleinich, who I assume also worked in Berlin/Potsdam/Spandau w/ August Louis Schlegelmilch, looks to have been responsible for the change from the military bullet diameter 8.09mm to 8.22mm(S-Patrone introduced April 3rd, 1903):
http://www.google.com/patents?id=hakiAAA...ad=0_0#PPA2,M1.
I lifted this somewhere and it may have been from one of John Walter's texts:

The 8x57mm came out originally in 1888, for the German Commission rifle of that year. The cartridge was designed by committee. Original bullet diameter was .318" and the bullet was a about 196gr or around 14.7 grams and in a round nose configuration. This was the 8x57J. “J” begins the German word for Infantry or I(J)nfanterie.

8X57IR (Infantry – Rimmed)

Bullet Diameter: 8.09mm or .3185” (.318”)

Barrel Land Diameter: 7.80mm or .3071”

Barrel Groove Diameter: 8.07mm or .3177”


8X57IRS (Infantry – Rimmed – Spitzer)

Bullet Diameter: 8.22mm or .3236” (.323”)

Barrel Land Diameter: 7.89mm or .3106”

Barrel Groove Diameter: 8.20mm or .3228”

But getting back on the Schlegelmilch track, the Ernst Steigleder klan purchased the Reinhold Schlegelmilch facility from the heirs of Reinhold Schlegelmilch in 1917. As far as I know Reinhold Schlegelmilch was into crockery and not sporting arms. Ernst Steigleder's widow sold the facility in 1931 making deals with Gebruder Merkel & Sauer to source examples from them. Ernst Steigleder's(Nov. 1874 - 1929) father was a barrel borer at C.G. Haenel but I am not sure of his first name. But Ernst Steigleder's mother's name was Anne Dorothee Siebelist.


Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Raimey,

my drilling has plenty of proofmarks, Krupps Laufstahl on all three barrels. The only mark that I can't account for is an "S" right behind the forend hook, if there's a first initial it's covered by the hook.



Rob