doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com ned help identifying 2 guns

here are two guns that i recently purchased, the drillings is in good condition and very tight, crack on both sides of he wrist. marked on the bbl FRANZ KETTNER on one of the top bbls and KOLN-SUHL on the other. i've tried to photo the markings as well but can describe if pics are not good enough.
the other gun is a single shot in very good condition that looks and feels very solid and tight, i have no idea he caliber, looks like approx. 8 mm. Any info would be greatly appreciated. I plan to sell and would like to know approx value.

Hammer drillings with unknown caliber and that bad of a cracked stock and nonoriginal screws, $500 maybe on a good day. It would cost more to restock than the gun is worth. Fix it and it's just an unknown caliber shooter. If the rifle is a normal 7 or 8mm that would help. The single shot is worth more if it's in a good caliber. If it's a obsolete caliber maybe not.

In 1884 Franz Otto Julius Kettner, son of Eduard Kettner(1811-1888) founded Eduard Kettner of Köln and a satellite facility in Suhl. Franz Kettner(1808-1873) was a brother to Eduard and had a son named Franz Kettner(1840-1913) and a grandson named Franz Kettner(1875-1963) who along with a greatgrandson named Eduard Franz Kettner(1908-2006) were all master gunsmiths(a fine example of why the gunmaking families are so difficult to trace). Apparently 1st cousins Franz Kettner(1840-1913) and Franz Otto Julius Kettner were in business together under Eduard Kettner and probably in the 1890s Franz left. The word on the street is that Eduard Kettner/Franz Otto Julius Kettner leaned heavily toward the firearms merchant side while the mastergunsmith line of Franz Kettner may have made almost every item in their own shops. The pre-1912 hammer cocking rear lock action drilling is probably 8x57/360(8.15X46R fits in the range but I don't think so). A better pic of the rifle tube may or may not provide some insight. Looks to have Krupp tubes. Let me check my info on 172,28).
The Kipplaufbuchsen is of the "Tell" variety and was probably made by Sauer and is more than likely chambered for 0.32 Winchester(it also could be 8.15X46R but I would think it would have been stamped so). Here is a Sauer example at Bob Jones - http://www.bobjonesguns.com/details.asp?id=C4465R . Options were 13mm, Winchester 22 Kurz and 22 Winchester, .32 Win and 9mm Express(9 360/57R) It was proofed/proved in the final form and let me check on that mark near the forend lug.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Good info from Mike and Raimey. The 172,78 mark that appears on both the drilling and the kiplauf is the "gauge" of the rifle barrel in the same sense that shotguns are 12 or 20 gauge. 172,28 will be an 8mm of some sort which could be any of a dozen different cartridges. Most common in these type rifles is the 8x57JR, others as mentioned above might include the 8x57R/360, 8x58R or 8x48R Sauer, 8,15x46R or even an American round like Raimey says - only a chamber cast can tell you for certain.

Steven:

We've missed your expertise. Haven't been under the weather have you?

ithacaman:
Could you write the stamp on the top of the single shot? Also the date stamp is the 2nd to the last set of numbers, 9.06 was it?

A comparable drilling - http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=131974636 . If I remember correctly, a Buttner & Schlegelmich had/have a metal type business.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Hello Raimey,

Nah, just under the equator - three weeks in Namibia then several days in Suhl, all fantastic.

The single shot looks to be the 747th entry in the February 1909 proof book; both guns were built before the 1912 proof law change.

the top of the bbl on the single shot reads:
o. seelig hofbuchsenmacher wiesbaden

the numbers on the single shot are

17228
2.09
747

thank you,
Scott

Hello ithacaman,

I may be interested in your drilling, if you'd like, please contact me at: rcariello@wi.rr.com

thank you,

tunes

I know the Seelig name as Georg Seelig peddled ammo & guns between the Wars. I may have additional info on ole top gunmaker Otto in Wiesbaden. I forgot to mention that the "TellBuchse" has the German(?) type stecher, which is a double set trigger. I really enjoy shooting a Tell.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

thank you for all the information, I'm anxious to know what you have on Otto in wiesbaden.

thank you,
Scott

Otto Seelig of Wiesbaden was a gunmaker to the Danish Royal House, and it may be here that he paid his tribute or fee for the use of the title. Otto Selisch lived in the same town of Wiesbaden and I would put a good bit of stock in the fact that they worked together more than in competition as Otto Selisch’s name is found on double rifles of the Danish Royal Family. Some sources give Otto Selisch as the source of the Muzzelverschluss(Clam Shell) actions, which was developed in the mid to late 1890s. He made the actions and the Berlin contingent, with the possible exception of Heinrich Barella, Otto Bock, Bemesu(small gunsmith or firearms merchant), Carl Stiegele, W. Förster, Bayer Hofgewehrfabrik, Munchen, etc., sourced the Muzzelverschluss components from him.

Robert Schüler also made longarms on the Clam Shell action in the early 1900s. For now I don’t know when he actually began which deals me some misery.

Greifelt included a Muzzelverschluss in their catalogue and possibly could be a source. And their was of course a Schlegelmilch connection: Greifelt & Schlegelmich frim.

But for now I think the following links & folks were responsible:
Friedrich Ernst Ferdinand Merkel(1821-1901) – engraver
Son Bernhard Emil Merkel(1874-1954) – Guns marked “B.Merkel-Suhl”
Found his own separate business circa 1900 and his son Fritz(1906-1976) followed in his footsteps
Ernst August Merkel(1853-1912)
Louis Franz Ferdinand Merkel(1866-1904)
Heinrich Barella, Genschow, Kettner, Kind & Mauser purchased components from Bernhard Merkel sourcing Sauer as a forge and machine shop. Now I have not seen a Sauer Muzzelverschluss to my recollection. This is a prime example of how lord/top gunmakers would source Suhl and surrounding areas for the best/top craftsmen for their end product while the Hof title holders had the connections and probably finished the arms. Suhl had it all but the connections: components, craftsmen, proofhouse, etc.

I still haven’t found all of my Otto Seelig info but when I see his name I think of the Muzzelverschluss. I think the action fell out of favor by the end of WWI, when the request for actions seemed to taper off but ALFA, GECO, Kind, etc. offered it as an option for an additional 75RM.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

thank you, please let me know if you find more. any thoughts on a value for this gun?

thank you,
Scott

I don't know how much weight can be associated with Otto Seelig, lord/top gunmaker or how much or if any value is added but I've seen the Tell examples range from $950 to about $1700 depending on the calibre. If you do a chamber cast and land up with 0.32 Winchester, with the Hof stamp you just might have an interesting combination.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

would that be 32-40 Wincester? thanks, Scott

No, I think .32 WCF is 32-20. The early Hahnlose Selbstspanerbuchse / Tells were available in 22WCF(model Tellbuchse III) and 32 WCF(model Tellbuchse IV). Where is the takedown lever and what type safety does it have, wing???

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

this is the forend latch, i'll take a photo of the safety.

it does appear to be 32 cal. photos added. thank you scott

Without a take-down lever, it may not be a true Tellbuschse, but I usually only refer to a tip-down single of the early variety as a Tell. It would then possibly be a Modell 36 or 37 Pirschbuchsen or Kipplaufbuchsen(tip down barrel). This could be a mute point and they both are one in the same. Is there a serial number, say 120000, on the left side of the barrel lug or on the frame. The screw between the triggers is the set screw for the German stecher or set trigger.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

the serial number 2764 is stamped in several places, i dont see other numbers in those area. thank you, Scott

My guess as to the likely cartridges it could be include 8,15x46R, 8x58R Sauer or 8x57R/360. With the 172,28 (.300") mark I think it's unlikely to be a .32 WCF (.32-20) because the .32-20 bullet diameter is a bit small for that in the .312" range.

Scott, If you could post back with the diameter of the rim recess and chamber mouth we could probably narrow it down quite a bit. Also, is the chamber straight or necked?