doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com (OT) 6,2mm/52 marked old German double

A quick search yields the following:

The original, circa 1900, handloader cautioned pressure limit for the 0.25-35 was 33k psi. It was designed for a 117 bullet, but other weights were as follows: 60, 87 and 100 along with the 117 grain typical. I had thought the older 0.25-35 version was less that the 6.2X52R. GR(Du Pont Gallery Rifle #75?, 1904) or "Marksman" was the powder of choice and it was topped with an 80 or 111 grain lead bullet William V. Lowe attempted to counter Winchester's 0.25-35 wit the ".25-37" but Marlin adopted it as ".25-36" as .25-36 Marlin with an "A"(black powder version) and "B"(semi-smokless). Last the 0.25 Remington was a rimless version of the 0.25-35 Winchester.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

The .25-35 was introduced by Winchester as a Smokeless powder round, it was never intended as a black powder round. Many have been confused by the name designation over the years, just as with the .30-30 Which was not so called by Winchester incidently, but later by Marlin I believe it was. Both of these rounds were introduced to the market as Smokeless powder rounds by Winchester for the 1894 lever action. Winchester called the .30-30 the .30WCF. The little .25-20 already had the name .25WCF. I too have read many places over the years that the 6.5x52R was simply the metric designation for the .25-35W, was totally unaware of the pressure drop for the continental version. Actually I thought specs for all the older Winchester lever action rounds called for pressures staying beneath about 38K when measured by the crusher method (CUP).

Let me re-phrase and pose the question correctly in this manner: I wonder what the pressure/date for the 25-36 Marlin approached?

If anyone has any info or a good reason why the cartridge designers/makers held on to the black powder nomenclature, I'd be obliged if you'd post.

Peter I missed your little post of interesting info until now.


Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Raimey,

The 25-35 and 30-30 are based on the 38-55 case. They are the 1st 2 American rounds developed for smokeless powder. As Piper stated above. They were introduced in 1895 and intended for use in the Winchester '94. Hogdon shows loads using the traditional 117 grn bullet ranging from 25,000 CUP to 36,600 CUP. http://data.hodgdon.com/cartridge_load.asp

In short order there were also the .25-36 Marlin and .25 Remington, which was rimless. Interesting side note, in Wikipedia they state the 6.5x52R and the 25-30 are the same. Which as 400 Nitro Express has shown they are not, based on proof pressures.

RWS produces the 6.5x52r, I would like to hear their take it. As I believe Jani is correct. For years they were considered the same by sportsman...

Even AccurateReloading states them as the same in their online guide.
http://www.accuratepowder.com/data/PerCa...0page%20212.pdf

Pete

Jani:

I don't think that's what that means at all. In a European catalog, ".25-.35 Winchester (6,5x52mm)" clearly indicates .25/.35 Winchester - a foreign cartridge that uses English decimal nomenclature in a catalog published in a country that uses metric cartridge nomenclature. So, ".25/.35 Winchester" is followed - in explanation - by it's metric dimensions, a 6.5mm caliber cartridge that uses a 52mm case. I see no attempt at all there to suggest that it is the same as a domestic (European) 6.5mm caliber cartridge, that, by coincidence, also happens to use a 52mm case (6.5X52R).

I think you're reading this one wrong, Jani, and you wouldn't be the first. These have never been the same cartridge. The confusion stems from the metric system nomenclature - both are 6.5mm caliber and use a 52mm case - but they're not the same cartridge.

400 Nitro Express:
I understand what you mean, but I do not agree.
Another example, this one from Peterlongo's 1934 catalog:
"6,5x52R (25-35 Winch.)"
So by this date Peterlongo (actually Richard Mahrholdt) reversed the naming; as I see it, another proof that this was considered the same, or interchangable, cartridge at the time.
With kind regards,
Jani

Proof law applies not only to guns, but to the ammunition as well. With respect to RWS, Norma, S&B, and other European cartridge manufacturers, all that's needed is to look at the CIP specs, posted previously. They're law, not industry standard, and that's the standard that is observed. In CIP countries (much of Europe), ammunition is required by law to be CIP compliant, and the package must be so marked, or it's illegal to sell it. Proof houses are responsible for spot checking compliance. When a lot exceeds CIP MAP, it must be withdrawn and, yes, it happens.

For what you're suggesting to be true, Jani, the proof standards of of one or both of these cartridges would have to have changed somewhere over the years - a lot. That would be unusual in the extreme, as there are fundamental safety reasons to never permit this to happen, and your rifle is a good example of why. Further, such a significant change would be well known.

The crusher pressure standards referred to above are long out of date. CIP standards are PSI, piezo electric transducer, not CUP, and CIP uses their own unique protocol, including a drilled case, which SAAMI has never used. As everyone knows, there's no ready conversion from crusher to transducer. If the standard pressures were allowed to change, that would place previously proven guns out of proof, with no assurance that new ammunition would be safe in them, so the conversion had to be done via testing. Current standards look different, but the pressures haven't changed, they've just been restated using a different measurement method. That keeps weapons in proof, and standard ammunition pressures safe.

Sorry, Jani, but I don't think you do.


Nope. Same thing, Jani. You're taking it out of context. "6,5x52R" is the metric description of the .25/.35 Winchester here, which is correct - it IS a 6.5mm caliber cartridge that uses a 52mm rimmed case. There is another 6.5X52R that is a WAY different cartridge, that is clearly not referred to here. The parenthetic reference - "(25-35 Winch)" - is used to distinguish THIS 6.5X52R from the other.

Sorry, 400 NE, I think I will rather make a pause at this point to avoid any remorse from my part in the morning (it's past midnight over here and being Saturday night I had a couple of beers, so...). See you later. - Best, Jani

Peter:

I assume you mean ".25-35" for the "25-30"? No, I was just curious where the pressure of the black powder .25-36 Marlin ranked when compared to the semi-smokeless .25-36 Marlin.

2-piper:

The 1894s may have been designed from 38k psi max. I've found a 42k psi value for 26.7 grains of HiVel3 behind a 60 grain HP in a Niedner S.S. rifle for the 0.25-35 & 32k psi for a 16.5 grains of Lighting behind a 117 grain bullet for the .26-36 Marlin with a corrosive primer.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse