doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com (OT) 6,2mm/52 marked old German double

Well, Peter, etal., anyone who narrowed the date for the 0.30 Winchester and the 0.25-35 were correct. The cartridges were "strickly smokeless cartridges" and were released as a pairing with the new nickel steel tubes Winchester was beginning to offer as standard. August 1895 looks to be the date of the Winchester Catalogue publication, but here may be one of the oldest non-Winchester published ads:
http://books.google.com/books?id=PRSgAAAAMAAJ&pg=RA2-PR57&dq=25-35+winchester&lr= .

Note that the cartridge is 0.30 Winchester Smokeless and both are loaded with their designated powder grains, smokeless no doubt.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Well, I was wrong on both accounts but I had remembered that Hannover wasn't in operation in 1952. But it opened in 1953 accepting small calibre rifles as well as Flobert types, proving in a limited capacity. Then on April 21st, 1955 in coordination with The State Institute for Physics & Technology in Braunschweig, a more extensive group of arms was allowed. It had/has the mark of the rampant Saxon horse.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

German GECO catalog 1937, p.54:

Amerikanische Original-Patronen
(Original American Cartridges)
...
Kal. .25-35
Diese Patrone ist auch in deutschem Fabrikat unter der Bezeichnung Kal. 6,5x52R lieferbar
(Cal. .25-35 /pictured is a specimen by Remington/
This cartridge can also be supplied in German make under the name of cal. 6.5x52R)
...
Note: translated from German by myself

So in my modest opinion these two cartridges were considered practicaly the same and interchangeable up to WWII and probably decades beyond, till CIP decided, for reasons presently unknown to me, to make/declare/recognize them as two distinctly different cartridges.

With kind regards,
Jani

I forgot to note that the 6.5X52R was standardized in the early 1920s or sometime between the end of WWI & 1923.

Jani when are you going to pleasure us with some pics?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Raimey,
I have no pictures available, must get the papers first.
With kind regards,
Jani

Jani,
I inherited a nice interwar Emil Eckoldt drilling 12/12/6,3-52R (Suhl). It has been firing 25-35 Win cartridges for decades, original and reloaded, with no trouble whatsoever. The rifled barrel is marked 8 gr, that would mean a 123 grain bullet. If you doubt the proofing of your gun go for a 6,5-52R S&B that gives 2200 bar. Another way is to reproof it for 25-35 Win with your local proof house.

ejsxs,
I don't doubt the proofing of my gun at all, I just needed some confirmation for legal reasons. I will buy S&B ammo for it anyway, because this is the only brand available here in Slovenia (I do have a few .25-35 ctgs by Winchester but they are old stock, part of my cartridge collection). Enjoy your Eckoldt drilling.
With kind regards,
Jani

Same thing again.



"...FOR REASONS PRESENTLY UNKNOWN TO ME" is the point. Your statement above is baseless speculation. You have no reason to assume that CIP has ever changed the specifications of these cartridges which, again, is unlikely for the reasons given. The numbers don't lie. CIP has normalized these as entirely different, non-interchangeable cartridges that are clearly unsafe to mix. What we do know, for sure, is that CIP knows a LOT more about it than you do. Perhaps you should discuss it with them.

Jani,

I think you have to register it as a 6,5-52R, if this is required for acquiring the S&B cartridges or for other purposes. Now the inconsistency on what the barrel flat says and the current cartridge denomination is due to a diference between measurement on land and on grove IMO. Has the local proof house a say on this? Here in Chile, also a CIP member, they are quite amenable; they noticed the inconsistency in my case and, after proofing, accepted this drilling to be registered as a 12/12/25-35Win gun.

ejsxs:

Would you email me any initials on the underside of your Eckoldt? My email is in my contact info.

I don't seem to have a copy, but Jack O'Connor in "Complete Book of Rifles and Shotguns" on page 153 either equate the .25/35 Winchester or compares it to the 6.5X52R. Someone with a copy might enlighten us. And I think standarization to be somewhat of a factor.

"Ammo: Its History, Development & Use" 1600-1943" by Melvin Maynard Johnson & Charles Tower Haven notes a 25/35 Win. Smokeless and Short Range, which I guess to be for Grouse or Rabbit and is topped with a lead bullet. Not all early listings note the 25/35 Win. as smokeless, but I guess it is implied. Either Harry M. Pope or Philip B. Sharpe noted that the 0.30 WCF in the development stage was loaded with black powder but the pairing of a lead bullet and black powder just didn't gee - haw.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse