doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com English sidelock ID help needed

I am trying to ID this English sidelock I recently acquired.
It came with a case with a T.W.Chambers maker's label. I don't know if the case matches the gun or not. I have a feeling it doesn't as the barrels (28") are a bit shorter than the case.
There is no maker's name I can find. Birmingham proof marks, I think. Here's what I do know:
12 gauge. 28". Right barrel slightly rifled with very little twist. Left smooth. Auto safety. Greener cross bolt. Just under 7 pounds.
What you can't see in the photos due to my photography skills:
Right barrel inscription: "Minguang For 2 1/2 and 2 3/4 cases"
[Minguang is one of the Burmese Nats]
Rib: "Made expressly for Y.E. Mordan Brothers, Rangoon"
Left barrel: "Made in England"
Pix:









I attempted to take the butt plate off, the screws came out, but I am afraid of using too much "english" and don't want to damage the butt plate, but it is resistant. Suggestions?

I sure hope one, or more, of you can help me. I love the gun, my first "real" SxS, but would sure like to learn more about its history, maker, date, etc. And were YE Mordan Brothers the owner, or an outfitter in far off Rangoon?

Thanks,
LouM

Lou,
You have a very interesting gun there. I think the Greg Martin auction description tells you about as much as anyone could say for certain. You are right about the case not matching the gun.

I’ve no details of the Morden Brothers but they would have been a retailer & general outfitter as you suggest – in the manner of Mantons.

Quite why the spirit of king Minguang was invoked is a mystery – does that engraving look as if it was done by the maker or added locally? A better photo of the proof marks & barrel markings would be good to see if possible as it seems as if there’s a lot of marks stamped on those barrels. It’s not easy to pick up all the marks in a photo – but getting the light at just the right angle helps a lot.

I feel that just who in the trade actually made the gun is of secondary interest compared to the interest from the information you already have which links the gun directly to a part of the world.

Regards
Russell

Russell,
I will have to re-upload the photo of the proof marks. I can read them better in the photo than with a hand lens. That will be later today.
The engraving on the barrels, to me, certainly looks original to the gun. I will work on better photos.
The gun had passed through the hands of Thad Scott a dealer here in the southern US. I was only able to see his import stamp from the digital photo. He was not helpful.
Any ideas on the right barrel? You can feel the grooves with your finger but they are hard to see. Are they there to stabilze a slug, or to spread shot in a wider pattern?
Can you recommend any references I should look through?
Thanks,
Lou M.

Russell et al,
Here's another picture of the proof marks. I hope it will be more detailed. I am still new to uploading pictures.

Once you take the butt plate screws out, how do you convince the butt plate to come off in one piece? I so enjoyed the thread awhile back about treasures under the butt plate, I couldn't wait to get this gun just to look there! I should take a screwdriver to the next auction preview ;-)

Lou M.

Your gun may have come from the cottage trade business, they did nice work, as you can tell!
You may never findout anything more about the piece.
Good looking gun tho.

To me the style says 'Midland Gun Company'. The engraving coverage and style, the cross bolt extension and long bar are typical of colonial of keeper grade guns of around 1900.

Can't read all the proof marks from your photo and a close-up of the locks would help. It has been re-proofed twice.

Greener patented a type of rifling that was very fine and stopped before the choke section - for use with shot and ball and Cogswell & Harrison had a system of very fine goove rifling for such guns using the trade name 'Collindian'. Never seen a cape gun made on the principle - usually get a rifled barrel and a smooth barrel. Clearly made for the colonial market and sold loaclly to meet that need.

Interesting gun.

Thank you for the information and feedback.
As I get better with the camera, I will post more pictures.

Regarding T.W.Chambers - who I guess isn't the maker - I made several attempts to contact the firm in Alness. After no luck, I called the local Community Business Association and was informed that Paul Chambers, last survivor of the firm bearing their name, and sole proprietor, passed away this past month.

Lou M.

I gave the proof mark image all the help I can.

The rifling as you describe in the Rt bbl suggests W.W.G. and is reminiscent of a B & S gun I had, though mine had both tubes rifled. It was signed A. Hollis, but a gun man of note who inspected it was certain it was built by Greener.
Looks like yours was made for someone who valued a tight pattern AND the ability to use ball.
No rear sight(s)?
Love to know the choke in Lt side.

Pete

I'm stabbing a bit here, but the position of the rear pin on the locks, high up against the back of the lock-plate, tends to suggest Baker locks, characterised by coil mainsprings. Have you had the locks off, Lou? If they are Baker locks, this might suggest the Daemon Gunworks, as they appear to have made a bit of a specialty of those locks. It would pretty-much rule out WW Greener. If the words 'English Made' appear a bit further up the underside of the barrels, this might add further weight to the Daemon Gunworks origin, but there are few certainties in the Birmingham gun trade!