doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com ATF regs. How to do something wrong, but legal?

I read all through Section P and saw nothing relative to the argument at hand. The argument being that a gun that has been shipped interstate to the buyer's FFL and the "buyer" refuses to keep the gun. I still say it can be returned directly to the non-licensed "seller", who is still the owner, in every sense of the word. No transfer of ownership has been made.

Once logged into the receiving FFLs log book it can only be logged out to an FFL or to someone filling out a 4473.

Same thing happens with a consignment sale where the owner decides to keep the gun.

It did not seem right to me the 1st time I had it come up so I called the ATF, the agent researched it and this is what he came back with. No legal way around it.

The transfer of ownership has been made to the dealer. It is an aquisition in his log book. To make a disposition to anyone that is a nonlicensee including the person that originally sent the firearm to the FFL requires either a 4473 & NICS check in person or shipment to an FFL for transfer to that person if out/state.

A nonlicensee may be 'selling' the gun as far as collecting money for it,,but regs do not allow you as a nonlicensee to actually sell, give, ship, etc a firearm to another nonlicensee in another state. This is the whole reason for sending it to the FFL. You transfer it to the FFL. The FFL legally sells it to the nonlicensee in that other state.

There should be no entry in the A&D book on the disposition side to a non-licensee that does not also have a 4473/NICS check with it. That includes returning a rejected firearm sent for transfer to a buyer. The only place you can log "Returned to owner" w/o haveing a 4473/NICS or an FFL on file is a gunsmithing transaction.

Same rule applys when returning a consigned gun that did not sell and is returned to the original owner,or returning a pawned firearm to it's owner. 4473/Nics checks are a must or ship to an FFL.
A gun sent for value assessment is considered 'gunsmithing' because no change of ownership is assumed in the dealing. Therefore the gun can be sent directly back to the original owner.

When a dealer makes a simple transfer it is both an 'aquisition of a firearm' & a 'disposition/sale of a firearm' as far as the BATFE is concerned and is counted as one of each in the 3yr totals that are required to be tabulated when renewing the license.

They don't care if it came from and went back to the same person for what ever reason. What they will want to see is either a 4473 for the disposition or the FFL copy of the dealer it was sent to should they stop by for a compliance check...and yes they check every transaction.

Not logging the gun in, trying to get the customer to decide quickly before it's logged and then if rejected, send it back w/o it being on the books doesn't work either. The dealer is still responsible for logging the entry no matter how short of a time they may have had the gun in their possession. They have til the end of the next business day to make the actual entry. I believe there is a longer period allowed for dispositions to be entered in the log as long as a business record of sales is available.

Not about ownership, its about possession and control of the firearm and making sure possession and control don't get into the hands of someone proscribed from ownership. Kutter's post above sets out exactly what the FAQs I cited say...Geo

Too bad really since many of us can remember when you could buy a gun mail order out of the "Shooter's Bible".

Still waiting for a link to the place in the ATFE rules that says that.

Posters explained ATF regulations and how they are applied in practice. YOU need more proof so why dont YOU call or write to our ATF for a ruling and report back here? YOU can do something positive instead of sniping at others who help. Can we expect a report back from YOU in one month?

Title27/CFR/
§ 478.124 Firearms transaction record.
(a) A licensed importer, licensed manufacturer,
or licensed dealer shall not sell or
otherwise dispose, temporarily or permanently,
of any firearm to any person, other
than another licensee, unless the licensee
records the transaction on a firearms
transaction record, Form 4473: Provided,
That a firearms transaction record, Form
4473, shall not be required to record the
disposition made of a firearm delivered to
a licensee for the sole purpose of repair or
customizing when such firearm or a replacement
firearm is returned to the person
from whom received.
*************************************8

..."shall not sell..'or otherwise dispose'..."

The firearm is logged in,,then it's going to a be disposed of to a nonlicensee, wether it's the original person who sent it in or not, then a 4473 is required of that person or must be shipped to an FFL in the nonlicensees state if nonlicensee be O/O/S. There's nothing that exempts the original owner/seller from this requirement when retrieving the firearm after being sent to the FFL. Only if it was sent for gunsmithing work.

The rest of *478.124 gives the proper procedures to follow in making out the 4473, what constitutes proper ID, etc.

OK, I give up. I've had two shotguns returned to me from out-of-state buyers, who were not happy with them. One was returned to my local FFL for convenience because I was out of town at the time. When I returned, I simply picked up MY gun and took it home. No 4473 was filled out, no background check was done. The last one was returned straight to me, at my house(almost buyer was a New York policeman). Again, no 4473 to reclaim my OWN gun. Neither of these two occasions prove anything about the law but if what you say is true, it's actually a rarity among the ATF rules. Most of them are based on logic and make good sense. This one does neither.

As for sending the firearm to a licensed dealer, I have not seen any LAW that said you had to receive a copy of the dealer's FFL. I have seen some guidance statements on the ATF website stating that receiving a signed copy of the dealer's FFL was one way to ensure you were sending it to a licensed dealer. I don't think it's a law and certainly isn't the only way. Try to get Remington to send you a copy of their FFL.

I thought the ATF provided for another way of verification for a sender to ensure he was compliant...the website list of licensees.

Chuck, you are probably right about that, but getting an ink-signed copy of the FFL would pretty much keep you in the clear if a problem arose. I never worry about sending a gun to a Gunsmith or back to the factory for work...Geo