doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com ATF regs. How to do something wrong, but legal?

mc; the example here is not gun sent for repair, its a gun thats' being sold. Kutter has it right. Dealer at buyer's end can't return gun non accepted to private person and is caught in the middle. Just not worth the hassle to make a few bukcs on a transfer. ben-t; just get with program , find a FFL at your end to log gun in his book and ship. You seem to be on personal crusade to make sure dealer understands the regs. I'd say he understands regs more than you think and has good business sense. Dealer won't get sued if a gun he transfers blows up? Yea right. CB

Instead of reading usless babble and opinons that are NOT backed up in fact lets look at something from the ATF website:

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/faq2.htm#b1

"(B7) May a nonlicensee ship a firearm through the U.S. Postal Service?[Back]
A nonlicensee may not transfer a firearm to a non-licensed resident of another State. A nonlicensee may mail a shotgun or rifle to a resident of his or her own State or to a licensee in any State. The Postal Service recommends that long guns be sent by registered mail and that no marking of any kind which would indicate the nature of the contents be placed on the outside of any parcel containing firearms. Handguns are not mailable. A common or contract carrier must be used to ship a handgun."

Simple and the the point,NO REQUIRMENT for a FFL on sellers end,FFL required on buyers end.

There is NO reason for FFL to be used on sellers end.If you have some case where a 01 FFL was sued for transfering a faulty firearm POST IT.
The choice is clear,facts "straight from the horses mouth" or opinions and fairy tails and stories straight from...well the other end of the horse !

I am getting old now, but still remember well enough the pride many who work in gunshops and own gunshops exhibit to their customers. For years as a young man I felt the people behind the counter would have rather drawn down on me than wait on me with my questions on their inventory. The short time I was in the business I came to realize that an element of the attitude was derived from customer queries like "whats the difference between lead shot and steel shot?", "how far can I see with these binoculars?" or " whats the killing power of a .243?". As to the problem of a FFL dealer not knowing the regs., often they are the only one in reasonable distance to do your transaction and debating with them is likey to ensure your going to be checking your tire pressure before setting out to the next canidates shop, or forgoing the transaction altogether. In the situation I presented initially, I am attempting to work through the problem by complying with my buyers dealer demand. To do this I have two dealers within a 20 mile distance that may help at a reasonable cost. One is not in his shop but for Wednesday, Friday and Saturday and the other (I have not dealt with before)is not answering his phone. I would like to sell my gun and to that end will do a little extra work to help my buyer, but the reality is that FFL dealers that don't know the regulations and are extra cautious are a price we are forced to pay for participation in a avocation that is scorned and has detractors that eagerly await another reason to clamp down on gun dealers. Someone said they experienced a shop that charges $85. to do a transfer! If all start charging that an FFL should fall into a catgory with CPA and JD, but if they do I don't think it is going to get better for hobbyist like me.

Dave K; no contest on the shipping part every one agrees, now read on in the regs how FFL can not return gun to a non licensee if the buyer decide s not to keep it in 3 day insp period. You only copy the part you want. Did you read my post? Duuhh. Now copy the part of regs about not being able to return direct to private non licensed shipper. FFls' get sued all the time: knew or should have known gun was defectuive but don't write about it. Would you ? CB

Cherrybomb,


Once again,if you have some instance where a FFL got sued for a defective (have no clue what "defectuive" is ) gun in a transfer why not post it?



I post facts what are you posting ?

BTW if the guy wants to return the gun to a FFL just deduct that from the money you are refunding.

Ben-T,
technically you don't even need the buyers FFL to send just proof that he has one (do you get one from Colt or Browning when you send back a gun?),ask him for his number and check it here,he may just be concerned about sending it to a "unlicensed" individual (I just write in ink- "FOR RECORDS ONLY");

https://www.atfonline.gov/fflezcheck/

If your still convinced on throwing money (maybe double-transfer out and back in) away,be sure to ask if his liability insurance for gun transfers is all paid up ,that ought to go over like a fart in church.

Kurt, I'm that guy, and $85 is the cheapest transfer I can find within a reasonable distance. The FFL I used to work with went to $175 per transfer a couple of years ago, because they just don't want to be bothered with transfers on "ordinary" guns. If you are transfering a Parker AAHE or a Famars, they are happy to do the transfer, but it's still $175. Several of the old line shops around me are not doing transfers at all, unless it's their own gun or a consignment that they handled. There are not a lot of options, but at least the shop I use knows the laws (most of the counter help are either retired or off duty cops).

Please give us a link to the rule you are "quoting" above. I have read the FAQs many times and have not seen what you claim is in there.
Thank you,
jl

Kurt,
tell your buyer to plug in his info here and let HIM call around to find a transfer dealer who will either send you a copy or give you the numbers so you can send the gun.

http://www.gunbroker.com/User/DealerNetwork.asp

Thanks to all for your interest and good advice! My buyer got disgusted with the process and on his own found a new Dealer who is sending a copy of his license. I will say with certainty that any dealer who charges a exorbitant price to do a transfer will not get any of my business again! I did transfers in the past and it isn't rocket science. I know customer service in this country is going to hell, but recording firearms isn't any harder than organizing an Outers sale rack so they'd better watch out or I might go back in business!

Jim, I think the regulations CB is talking about are in the P section of the BATF's FAQs. Take a look at (P11), P17), (P22), (P25), and (P53). The definition of 'transfer' seems to turn on possession and control rather than 'ownership'. I'm not much convinced by the liability argument either, but it looks to me like he's right about shipping interstate to a non-licensee. I am seeing more sellers on Gunbroker offering to ship thru an FFL for a fee in order to facilitate returns by buyers...Geo