doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Fox Values, Am I Wrong?

The Fox "pin" appeared on several of his guns. The Sterlingworth, the Philadelphia Arms guns and the Baltimore guns:





The later efforts of Ansley...




Pete

George & George L,

I'm not as crazy as I thought? I just checked MM's book and he verifies that when Ansley opened the new company, he put out advertising that warned potential buyers to not buy an A. H. Fox gun that didn't have his full name on it, and also said that the new Fox company had no connection with the older company. So, I'm back to my original question...Why is there a difference in price between an A. H. Fox and an Ansley H. Fox of seemingly equal value?

binko

Binko, I still think you're confusing two different things. A.H. Fox would have been on his previous guns, which were of a different design than the ones he made after the Baltimore/Philadelphia Arms guns. What he's telling people is "Buy my new guns, not my old guns!" But if it's a REAL Fox and not one of his earlier guns, it'll be marked Ansley. You may also be confusing the fact that, at least where a lot of Fox fans are concerned, the Philadelphia-marked guns--made prior to the sale of the company to Savage--will command a higher price than a Savage-made gun in the same condition.

LB,

I understand that they are different guns...so, which one would command a higher price today? I never was confused about them being different, but if you read the previous posts, I was led to believe I was wrong in thinking there were Fox's marked A. H. Fox on the receiver, and that all of them said Ansley H. Fox. This was my original question, "Why are A.H.Fox guns selling for more than an Ansley H. Fox?" It was then suggested that there was no difference and all of them were basically the same, but this has not been my observation.

So now, can someone tell me, why the difference in price???

binko

Binko, according to McIntosh's book, Baltimore Arms guns were marked "Fox Gun Co Balto Md USA". That was his first venture in gunmaking. He went from there to Philadelphia Arms, which stated in its catalog that it "is now manufacturing the A.H. Fox Hammerless gun". I don't know how those guns were marked, but in 1904 he left Philadelphia Arms and let it be known that he was starting his own company: the A.H. Fox Gun Company. That company is the source of the guns which, today, we would refer to as Foxes. The previous ones would be referred to as either Baltimore Arms or Philadelphia Arms. If those are the guns you're talking about, if you found one in really nice condition, it would likely command a lot of money from a collector because there are not many of them, whereas there are--comparatively speaking--a lot more Foxes, even in the higher grades. And at least going by the photos in McIntosh's book, even the early products of the A.H. Fox Gun Co. seem to be marked Ansley H. Fox. Someone with a very early Fox, or Baltimore or Philadelphia Arms gun, may be able to add more.

Wow!...Ok, A.H.Fox guns are the same thing, made by the same company as Ansley H. Fox guns. Ansley H. Fox, the individual, began building guns with Baltimore Arms, went out of business and moved to Pliladelphia and started up Philadelphia Arms, went out of business and found new money partners and started the A.H. Fox Gun Company in Philadelphia. He fell out with those partners about 1910 and left the gun business for good (except for production of a flare gun in WW1). The A. H. Fox Gun Company went through a couple of financial failures and was finally sold to Savage/Stevens in the '30s. That's my recollection of the Fox history for whatever it might be worth...Geo

Larry you have that screwed up. The Maryland corporation, Fox Gun Co., Balto., MD., U.S.A., operated from the summer of 1898 thru the end of 1899, building a gun based on Ansley H. Fox's Patent No. 563163 granted June 30, 1896. In January 1900, Ansley's partners incorporated a new company, Baltimore Arms Co., under the laws of West Virginia. Ansley left to become a professional trap shooter for Winchester. Baltimore Arms Co. built a new factory a short distance away from where the Fox plant was and built a gun of Frank A. Hollenbeck's design, Patent No. 643601, granted Feb. 13, 1900. Ansley was neither an officer or director of Baltimore Arms Co. All the assets of the Fox Co. were transfered to Baltimore Arms Co. but whether Ansley had any stake in it or not I've never found. For a while there in the early 1900s four companies were building guns of Hollenbeck design -- Baker Gun & Forging Co., Syracuse Arms Co., Baltimore Arms Co., and the Hollenbeck Gun Co.

By 1902 Ansley had moved to Philadelphia and in November 1902, incorporated Philadelphia Arms Co. under New Jersey law.

This is getting way too detailed and complicated. Let's just go with Binko's understanding of the Fox gun history and answer his question...A.H.Fox guns were a lot nicer than Ansley H. Fox guns so they sell for more...Geo

George that just aint so.

I know...Geo