doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com SHORT CHAMBER

i bought bunch of 1oz and 1&1/8 oz (aprox 1100ft/sec) fiocchi shells in black paper cases and use them in my old sterlingworth, and extra light remi 31 with no problems.

The folks at Polywad are top notch as well. I accidentaly ordered a couple boxes of 2 3/4 when I needed 2 1/2. When I called they sent me out two boxes even though 4 is supposed to be their minumum order. Due to the high price of shipping they threw in an additional half box of shells. For my mistake I think they went well above and beyond for me. Both makers are good. I would check out which ones pattern best out of your gun.

As far as expense. A box of 20 from either company is still about 7 dollars cheaper than a box of Golden Pheasant Fiochi. Any good brand of shells for upland game tend to fall in the 10.00 range anyway. The only down side IMO is you have to order by phone or internet. I just make sure to order enough before hunting.

As I said before reloading reduces cost and control variables such as pressure. Additionally one has more flexibility to create combinations of shot weight, pressure and velocity not available of the shelf. One can also trim hulls and make their own short shells easily. I just ran the reloading calculator on my most often used target loads and came up with my cost for a box of 25 as follows: $3.59 for 20ga 3/4oz, $3.79 12ga 7/8oz, and $4.12 for 12ga 1oz. I use brand name components and could save more if I bought in bulk. Velocity for these loads is beteen 1145fps and 1200fps and pressures in the 12 around 7800psi and 9500 in the 20. I also find reloading to be relaxing and satisfying past time.

i would stay away from that hot golden pheasant load. i bet it generates about 600-650bar of pressure. i certainly would not put them into ole' short-chambered gun.
it was hard to beat that $6 or $6.50 price per 25 on those fiocchi papers.

I was not telling him to use Golden Pheasant in short chambered guns. I was just showing that a good "standard length" box of shells often times can be more expensive than buying a box of 2 1/2 shellsfrom RST or Polywad". For some reason people have the idea buying short chamber shells equates to 30 dollars for a box of 10 like they pay for heavi shot type shells.

Bell's articles do indicate that there's often a mild reduction in pressure if the forcing cones are lengthened. Lengthening the chamber does nothing to make the gun stronger, and American factory 2 3/4" shells, in almost all cases, are higher pressure than factory 2 1/2" shells. The problem, however, is not the length of the hull in and of itself, but rather the pressure generated. You can reload, using American 2 3/4" hulls, and shoot them in short-chambered guns without any worries--IF you keep the pressure within the parameters for which the gun was originally designed. Prior to the advent of the 2 3/4" hull as "standard"--and standardization was not arrived at all at once by all manufacturers, nor in all gauges--pressure for the old short shells was about 1,000 psi or so lower than in the then-new 2 3/4" shells. It's likely that both a Sterlingworth and a Model 12 with factory short chambers are strong enough to handle that additional pressure, even though they were not designed to do so. But you will be kinder to your old gun if you stick to loads within the pressure parameters for which they were designed, either by shooting factory short shells or by reloading 2 3/4" hulls at lower pressures.

And with the Model 12, as mentioned above, there may well be ejection problems with 2 3/4" hulls.

I would rather leave both guns as they are I have observed shells all cost about the same. I wont be shooting enough where cost will be a factor. As for reloading gun shops in area have not been able to get shot of anykind. I understand the principle of reloading been doing it since 1960. i have been cutting and recrimping new factory 00 buck. for the mod 12. there are wild dogs in the area dont want to use cf rifle. the model 12 has been untouched since 1917 its not collecter grade but I respect its age. probably better gun than the fox thou it also is untouched. I will leave these guns like I got them not out of value but out of respect for what they are. A couple of old guns that have come through time to me. I thank everyone for their input. Buying the proper amunition is my solution for now. I can always modify the modern stuff.
Thanks for everything from this forum
Tom

Tom, if you're not shooting that much, I'd say that's a good decision. Factory 2 1/2" shells are more expensive than the cheapos you might buy at Walmart, but not by so much that it will make any difference if you're not shooting multiple flats of shells per year.

I wonder how much impact the actual length of the hull you are shooting has when the shell is longer than the chamber. Certainly it has a bearing, but at what point? I see mention of 2 3/4" shells but I don't know if I have ever measured a 2 3/4" shell. I have measured plenty that were intended for guns with 2 3/4" chambers. I never really paid much attention until the first time I trimmed some 16 gauge Fiocchi GT hulls down to 2 1/2" for a short chambered English gun. Everyone told me I could shoot low pressure shells for 2 3/4" guns but that gun will turn one hundred in just a couple of years and I'd be nervous every time I pulled the trigger. I don't think that would make me shoot my best so I decided I was going to load shorties for it. What I noticed was the little ring of hull that was trimmed off was nowhere near 1/4". The shells ended up measuring 2.6" prior to trimming. Today I measured a few other hulls that I have laying around. The 12 gauge hulls, particularly the Remington and Federal, came close to 2 3/4" but none of the 20 gauge hulls I measured did. Even after I trim 20 gauge hulls back to 2 1/2" they are still longer than the chambers in my old 20 gauge Fox by about 1/8". Here is what I got checking a handful or two of several different hulls:

20 ga AAHS 2.61" - 2.64"
12 ga AAHS 2.68" - 2.70"
16 ga Rem. 2.67" - 2.69"
20 ga Rem. 2.66" - 2.67"
12 ga Rem. 2.72" - 2.74"
20 ga Fed. 2.64" - 2.65"
12 ga Fed. 2.70" - 2.72"

I know this gets off topic but what about the effect of crimp depth? The first time I read how much that can have an effect on pressure I didn't believe it was true. That impact is far greater than what I saw from the Bell or Garwood tests when using hulls 1/4" (or less) longer than the chambers.

Skip

Skip, the important thing--as far as the manufacturer is concerned--is that they're all shorter than 2 3/4".

With some older Brit (and, I think, other European) doubles, you can have a problem with 2 3/4" hulls. It's been reported in at least a couple different places. Usually occurs on 19th century guns, which are more likely to have very short and sharply-taspered forcing cones. With those you can get blown ends and notice an increase in recoil. In those cases in particular, unless you want to have the cones lengthened, you're probably well advised to stick with 2 1/2" hulls.