doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion Classic & Custom Single Barreled Sporting Rifles @ doublegunshop.com Question for Michael Petrov or anyone else.

Mark, the Canjar is actually a variation of the original Winchester Single Set Trigger, the predecessor to their Close-Coupled Double-Set Trigger. As you point out, it's actually a 2-lever design that functions in both the set and unset modes. It's generally a lot crisper-feeling than the typical over-center SST designs like the Remington roller & the Kepplinger.
Regards, Joe

Many thanks to all who replied. I appreciate it.

Joe, Any of the testing or testers provided a reason for the loss in accuracy when using a set trigger?

Yes, I too don't understand why a set trigger would cause a small loss of accuracy when shooting from the bench.

IMO the culprit is lock time vs barrel time.

The tester was me, the testing protocol involved same-day same-target alternating-methods on each successive bull for a minimum of 4 bulls per method (set vs unset), groups of 5 shots measured c-to-c. IOW each rifle had a minimum of 8 groups fired, 4 set and 4 unset, all on the same target with proven loads. Some rifles actually had many dozens of groups fired, using different bag techniques. Rifles included RFs and CFs, bolt actions and single shots; trigger types included the simplest crudest over-center type SSTs, the better sear-equipped SSTs, the CCDSTs and the wide-spaced double-lever DSTs. Sorry no 3-lever or 4-lever types were tested. Set pulls ranged from 2 oz to 8 oz, unset pulls ranged from 2.5 lbs to 6.5 lbs. It's been many years since I began this testing and it continues to this day on a sporadic basis. So far I've tested maybe 25-30 rifles, about equally split between bolt actions and single shots, RFs and CFs, sporters and match rifles. This was shooting at ranges from 50 yds to 200 yds, mostly on a wind-shielded private range but some testing was also done on a non-shielded public range. Front tripod with U-bag, rear rabbit-ear bag, smooth leather on both. Some experiments with stacked front bags instead of the tripod. Several thousand rounds fired including my next-to-last hoarded Eley RF and my very last Federal RF. Scopes ranged from 4x to 24x, Weaver to Unertl.

In no case, not one single case, did the rifle, any of the rifles, make smaller groups with the set feature than when using it unset.

Think about that. Dozens & dozens & dozens of targets, each with 4 set groups and 4 unset groups fired alternatingly and successively at the same time by the same person, and not one of the targets showed better accuracy when using the set feature. Difference ranged from 8% to 16% with no pattern or trend apparent to me.

Also please remember that many of the early post-WW2 Benchresters at the Pine Trails range and others began by using set triggers but soon, very soon, they had all abandoned the set triggers for light-pull non-set ones. The set feature is a big help to me when my hold is less than steady such as offhand or field shooting, but apparently the increased set lock time becomes more noticeable as the steadiness of the rest improves. JMOFWIW and I know some will disagree with it, but it's mighty hard to argue with the testing and the Benchresters.
Regards, Joe

Joe,
Thanks, No reason to argue with real life.

I spent a good portion of my range time last summer working up a load for a 1908 Mannlicher Schoenaur. Just shy of 300 rounds down range, I always got the better group using the DST. But that's just my one experience and I'm no fantastic rifle shot for sure! Perhaps a better un-set pull would have given different results.

I must say that my experience doesn't in any way compare to the number of rounds fired and the numerous different firearms used by JDS. I can see how the transfer of motion in the set mechanism can disturb the aim. As small and fast moving as the set parts are, they are in motion just before the shot is fired. The set trigger hitting the sear knock off just an instant before the shot is fired has to disturb the aim in some small amount. If your heart beat can be seen in the cross hairs of a 'scope of a closely held rifle, I have no doubt the set mechanism going off disturbs it as well.

But I still like 'em!

Just to add to Joe's comments, I would think that the root cause of the problem is the "set" trigger when released "hits" the sear toggle. Its this "hit" that is observed accuracy wise due to induced barrel vibration however small. JMHO --- John Can.

Joe,

My thanks also. Very interesting results that you report. I never thought of those factors that you isolated being a detriment to accuracy. I simply adore set-triggers, and have them on many of my rifles (including a classic Mauser project I'm in the middle of). The only one I didn't care for was the single-set on a High Wall in R2 Lovell, barreled by Jerry Gebby, that even though it had a wide range of adjustment I couldn't tame the kick-back it had upon tripping it. I found it to be mildly disconcerting and it was a factor in my trading it off. It's rather a bit late to ask now, but is that a common trait of old Winchester single-set triggers? The reason I'm asking is a distant shooting buddy is offering me a HiWall thin side, leaf spring action w/single-set trigger at a decent price that I've been dragging my heels on because of the trigger. I've always wanted a .28/30, and...

There may not be any real need for a double set triggers, but they sure do look neat on some of the old rifles like the Winchester High Walls. I like the way the Close-Coupled double set triggers look on a lever action. As my Grandson would say: Cool!

My ex wife's aunt had a H.M. Pope barreled Winchester High Wall Schuetzen Rifle with double set triggers in .32-40, false muzzle and all.
It had belonged to her father who had ordered it new. A family heirloom that I couldn't talk her out of!
They kept it hanging over the fireplace! Had on idea of it's value. I guess one of her boys, who had no interest, ended up with it. That was 40 years ago. No telling where it is today.
It was a joy to shoot. At least I got to experience it!