doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Tungsten shot news

Ben, you keep posting stuff we already know--but you never manage to include "the rest of the story". Tungsten alloys are extremely effective, and "green"--and (Ben leaves out) about 10x more expensive than lead. Steel has gotten better, as established by the fact that you can now kill waterfowl a long ways away with it. Well, we all know steel is better now than it was 20 years ago. But "better" for a waterfowler means longer range kills. For an upland hunter, if one is pursuing birds like grouse and woodcock, or quail in the thick stuff, you don't want more range. What you want is an open pattern--and one that opens quite quickly. Steel shoots tighter than lead through virtually all chokes, making it harder to get open patterns at close range, like grouse, woodcock, and some quail hunters prefer.

Summary: Steel still isn't as versatile as lead. It remains more expensive--although not by as much as it used to be. (Although lead prices are still coming down.) And there are hundreds of thousands of shotguns (perhaps millions?) through which steel should not be shot--period. And although there are now steel loads available for the .410 and the 28, they are so anemic as to render those guns useless for much beyond shooting butterflies.

Not to mention the fact that gamebirds simply aren't dying off from ingesting lead--other than the occasional individual bird. (Doves may be an exception.) With all the lead we've spread around, if it were a problem for upland birds, then why have the Dakotas and Minnesota experienced pheasant harvests in 06 and 07 the likes of which they have not seen in 40 years or more? We're simply not seeing the same problems with upland birds that we saw with waterfowl 2 or 3 decades ago. Eagles have made an incredible recovery from low numbers of 2 or 3 decades ago.

Looks to me like further lead restrictions are a solution to a nonexistent problem.

I don't know the science, Larry, but should think tillage the following spring plows and harrows deeply any shot and Nature's leaves and woody detritus over winter obscures widely scattered shot from grouse.

King, I just don't think it's a problem for upland game, with the possible exception of doves--where, as with waterfowl, you get a lot of concentrated shotfall in a confined area (especially if talking public hunting areas where doves are shot). Why are we seeing more pheasants in the states where they're hunted the most, if lead is a problem for them? Does not pass the logic test.

Do you consider non-toxic a serious possibility for all hunting from what scientists are reporting? Or to project a bit, a lead-ban on all US public lands which I believe comprise around 40 per cent of the geographical area? The reason I ask is that doves can be used as PETA used our baby whitecoat seals (which are not hunted). I hope there's a strategy to come to grips with it.

Yeah, I've noticed the doves around here are flying a lot slower what with all the lead they are carrying around in their crops. Some can't even get off the ground and the ones that do are breaking the tree branches they roost in. Our poor coyotes are dying in droves from scavenging the carcasses of these birds. And the last time I went out, I got half the daily limit, but still got a hernia trying to carry them back to the truck.

Tungsten is a long dirt road to a dead end. Demand will bring higher prices, yea right like their not outrageous now!!!
Any news on the bismuth patent under Pederson(?) Publishing? Or is the patent pending not even an issue anymore.

King, nontox is already a requirement on all federal Waterfowl Production Areas. Not a requirement on other federal lands, such as National Forests, National Grasslands, Bureau of Land Management, etc. It's possible that the current administration might push things in that direction, although I haven't heard anything along those lines so far.

The Peterson patent has run out, a new company is making the bismuth shells now.

http://www.pinnacleammo.com/

Wow what a relief, and to think I was paying $2.38 per shell for TM now with bismuth back on the scene and at $2.37 per shell I can rest easy now!!! WTF!!!
Why hasn't Remington or Federal or Winchester started loading bismuth. Anyone hear or know anything???
Thanks for the information MarketHunter but it seems to me just more bad news.

Winchester had something to do with bismuth when Peterson had it but that didn't last long. I remember some of the earlier boxes of it I had showed the Winchester logo and were loaded into Winchester cases.

Really the only one of the "Big Three" that ever did anything serious with a double gun friendly non-toxic shot was Federal and their Tungsten Polymer shells which are now discontinuned.

The vintage gun shooting segment of the market is just too small to warrant the trouble I'd imagine. They make their money selling steel and the various hevi-shot variants to all the Benelli / Berreta automatic shooting crowd.

Destry