doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com LIndner Daly Tube Steel Types

I bet ya'll get fatigued with my many steel questions, but I was curious if I could get a sense of just how many tube types/steel makers that can be found on Lindner Dalys, Schilling, Schuler and Triebel Dalys and if there were any exceptions to finding Krupp tubes on a Sauer Dalys. Mr. Hallquist's Daly with Rochling steel tubes seems a bit odd and I was wondering if there were more Rochling examples, as well as Boehler, Bochumer Verein, Poldi, Rhienmetal, etc. I think Sempert & Krieghoff(Ludwig, Sr.)/V.C. Schilling to be the source of the Rochling steel tubes. From S, D & G catalogues it can be seen that models were available with Krupp or Witten tubes. Feel free to include Damascus or pattern welded tubes, but I would venture a guess that revdocdrew has that covered. I'm also fishing to see if there are any tubes by the Ritz brothers.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

By "Sauer Dalys" I assume you mean drillings made by Sauer and sold under the Charles Daly name? All of these I have seen are Krupp-tubed. Many have do have "Three-ring" Krupp barrels.

I remember seeing a comparsion chart somewhere of the various steel maker's tubes with either a relative strength rating or quality rating. I may have been in an old Double Gun Journal? I do remember Witten Excelsior being rated right at the top or tied for best.

Yes, any and all including the pre-WWI Daly Sauers(Model 60s/Diamond Quality) with the patent info on the sides of the tubes as well as the odd Sauer serial number sequence and any with the Krupp 1922 trademark "Nirosta" steel stamp. The question probably has already been posed and answered. I'll check the DGJ and was Witten ever compared to Rochling?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Year 1895-----Fine Damascus on lower models, Bernard, Turkish, and Chine on upper models starting at Model 200. Fluid steel on Model 100 drilling

Year 1912 and 1914-------------Whitten Excelsior or Krupp Special [not to be confused with Krupp regular] on Models 225-500. Krupp [regular] on models 50 and 105.

1917----------No Daly guns listed

I will not be much help here as this is not my forte.
Back when Hans and i were researching the man, by me, and the guns by him, he noted that there was evidence that the Ritz Bros. should be included.
If memory holds, Hans had a Lindner Daly 12 gauge with a tiny mark in the action that he attributed to Ritz Bros.
Don't know about the tubes, though.
Unless I am in left field, the Schilling barrels should be marked with the S in a six sided cartouche.
Best,
John

In regard to the fluid steel guns -

Fluid steel Daly gun are not mentioned in the 1895 SD&G catalog. The first catalog I own where they appear is 1899. Initially only Krupp steel is offered. A few years later Witten Excelsior is offered on the diamond quality guns. From 1900-1916, only Krupp (special steel) and Witten are offered.

From 1917 - until the early 1920s, Daly guns are not available in the catalogs . (The earliest catalog I own that shows their re-appearance is 1924.) From 1924 - approx 1930, the Witten steel is still there but Krupp "special steel" has been replaced by Roechling "special steel."

Ken

- On a related topic, I have some pics from a very interesting Daly I'l be posting. This one loads from the front. The damascus tubes on it are fantastic.

Ken, the 1895 catalog does offer "Fluid" steel in the Model 100 drilling, which is probably a Sauer gun.

In the 1912 and 1914 catalogs, Krupp [not Krupp Special] is offered on Models 50,105,107,108,135, 165,and 185

Question for you Lindner Daly experts: Can you tell me the model of the gun shown in the very first picture on the other Lindner Daly thread (Lindner Daly forend question)? It's a featherweight with Krupp barrels. Thanks.

Whatta think Ken-
model 135, 165 ?

- JBP

Larry,

Likely it is a model 185. I can't tell from the photos if it has ejectors. The next step down AT THE TIME THIS GUN WAS MADE was the model 135 which was similar with a little less engraving and extractors. The 185 was right below the start of the diamond quality models.

The thing that is confusing with Daly models is that the particular model number really depends on the time period in which it was made and sold. Some models came and went (e.g., the model 155) and others models were grouped together or later broken out based on their features. This is what causes so much confusion in the Prussian Dalys. That said, the post-1900 model structure is a lot less confusing than the earlier guns.

Ken

The only Charles Daly guns made by Sauer I have seen are drillings, all plainly marked "J. P. Sauer".

The so-called "Sauer Daly" on page 244 of Mr. Cate's recent Sauer book is a Lindner-made shotgun with radial interlocking (Sauer American patent 505006) Sauer barrels as discovered and described by Jeff Stephens in DGJ. The author attributes the HAL stamp on the barrels to the "mechanic that fitted the ejectors" and doesnt mention the crossed pistols below it at all. The book goes further with photos of high-grade Sauers, called Sauer "Dalys" which might have been imported by SD&G but are not marked "Charles Daly" anywhere to my knowledge. There are also photos of clearly Lindner-made guns called "Daly Sauers"- which probably started life as Sauer forgings but the Sauer connetion ended there.

If anyone has seen examples of Charles Daly-marked shotguns made by Sauer, I would welcome the reference.

I applaud the hard work it took to put out the book- which contains a great deal of good information, but would like to address this distinction before it goes further.

Very best,

C.

Actually I concur with you analysis of the info and pics you note from Mr. Cate’s book and I for one couldn’t begin to make the call. If the term “Sauer Daly” is taboo, I’d be glad to delete the term from this thread but my inquiry was an attempt to gain info on Charles Daly tube steel types and any info from the taboo “Sauer Daly” longarms may be a moot point due to the fact that a Sauer produced longarm will have Krupp steel tubes, although a deviation may exist. Knowing which facilities/makers had the means to manufacture tubes along with any tube maker’s stamps on the tube might lead one back to the maker/source. Sempert & Krieghoff(Ludwig, Sr.) offered Roechling steel tubes, as did Merkel, and were possibly the only game in town for Roechling. Heinrich Krieghoff, Ludwig’s 2nd son, left S.&K. in 1916 to hang out his own shingle and by 1919 either completed the purchase of Val. Chr. Schilling’s(Albert, Moritz & Walter) tooling or purchased Schilling’s tooling. WWI had ended and so did H.A. Lindner’s handi-work. I’m sure his network fell to the wayside and someone at S, D & G along with a contact in Suhl had to keep it together. Lugwig Krieghoff, Sr. expired in 1924 and Heinrich Krieghoff brought S.& K. under his gun making umbrella but Sempert & Krieghoff/Krieghoff-Waffen may have continued until at least 10.10.1925 as per a catalogue. Schuler and S. & K. had a relationship earlier as Schuler sourced his Mauser’s from S. & K. and could have easily sourced tubes from S.&K. or Krieghoff-Waffen.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Not to hijack the post but the name Triebel you refer to, would they have been in Potsdam?

Hey Clair...so far I am only aware of a few Sauer Daly shotguns. Fortunatly there is one currently on the market that is clearly a Sauer model 8. Here is the link:
http://www.safarioutfittersltd.com/EuropeanPage36.htm

Anyway would love to get the S/N of this one for my records but just have not gotton around to it. (Ken G if you have the s/n on this one...I would sure like to ask for it!) Gute Nacht

J. Stephens

Jeff - I don't have that particular gun either. Sorry.

Clair - The one exception to your information is the gun Jeff provided - the Daly model 80. The Daly model 80 shows up in the 1902 SD&G catalog (It is not in either the 1899 catalog or the 1903 catalog.) It is the lowest grade Daly gun offered in the catalog, retailing for $80. In the catalog write-up, SD&G makes reference to having used the "same manufacturer who makes the Daly drilling" to help them keep up with the "unprecedented demand" for Daly guns.

As the photos show, it is a very Sauer looking gun. That said, I would agree with your other points though, and I agree that the book reference has it wrong. Some high-grade Dalys have a stamps for the Sauer patent for securely attaching the rib to the barrels near the breach end of the barrels. I think that has caused some to conclude they were Sauer made guns - not true.

The SD&G enterprise fell apart in the late 20s though one could get a "Prussian Daly" for several following the break-up of the firm. This period of the Daly story is a little murky. This is why I hesitate to saw "never" on the Sauer-Daly question (other than the model 80.) That said, I have not see one, other than the drillings and the model 80.

Ken

Ken

Ken--Thanks very much. Yes, that gun does indeed have ejectors. Right now they're tripping when the gun is opened. Once that issue is taken care of, it will be heading my way. Looking forward to shooting it!

Anyone have any idea what a 185 sold for, around 1912 or so?

Come to think of it, I'm finally getting around to the real CLASS Daly. I've previously owned Belgian, Italian, and Japanese-made Dalys (both OU and sxs in the latter case). Nice to finally acquire one of the originals!

Larry,

In 1912 the model 185 retailed, not coincidentally, for $185 ($200 in 10 gauge).

Ken

Thanks, Ken! That was a fair piece of change back then.

Thanks very much for the link and information Jeff and Ken.

Just a quick clarification. Patent 505006 is incredible in that the barrels and ribs are "radial dovetailed" together, if you will (check Google Patent for a nice drawing). It was even used on drillings to lock all three barrels together mechanically at the breech negating the need for silver soldering. As Jeff noted, it must have been very expensive to produce and not many are seen.

It would be great to see the serial number and proof marks on the Sauer-Charles Daly at Safari (and compare it to it's bigger brother, a Sauer 12, which I own). Sauer seemed very protective of their brand and usually marked their guns plainly somewhere on the action and barrels. Given the number of counterfeits I have seen over the years, that's understandable. Many sellers today also advertise "Sauers" which have never seen the inside of the factory on the Aue.

Never say never with German guns.

C.

I own an identical gun in 20 gauge.
It is a Mod. 185.

Best,
John

Ken ... I should have known the Sauer Daly (the model 80) would have been the entry level(?) gun in the early 1900's but had not given it alot of thought as I do not have any Daly catalogs...except for a few early SD&G reprints. Great info you have provided for us Sauer nuts about the model 80 and thanks for clarifing the grade and model for me.

Clair...in regards to Sauer US patent 505006...it appears to have fallen out of use/favor some time around 1900. My thought at this time is that this method of barrel construction was just to expensive to produce. There was a ton of machining time involved in this barrel production method. Guten Tag Jeff

$ 200 in 1913 / adjusted for inflation would equate to
~ $4,265.52 in 2009 dollars........

just right for a full boat RBL, or ~ AYA sidelock

I don't think the quality of either compares to these old boxlocks as they would have come from the factory!

- JBP

Thanks for confirming, John.

Don't every worry about hijacking one of my threads as that is about the state of it when it begins. I think you are referring to: http://www.triebel.de/en/triebel/index.htm which was probably a Triebel offshoot as a firearms merchant. But I was referring to the Suhl Triebels such as Christopher(?), Christopher(?) Friedrick, Richard, A.& W. or K. & W., Otto, and I think Kerner had some association with a Triebel. But H.A. Lindner married Hedwig Triebel in the late 1870s and that combined with H.A. Lindner’s mother being Dorothea Kolb Lindner, a close relative of the engraver Hugo Kolb, possibly a sister????, formed a gunmaking network that somehow included V.C. Schilling. Remember it is always about economics. Schilling, along with Greenwood & Batley-Leeds, Mauser, National Arms and Ammo. Company Limited-Birmingham, Spangenbert & Sauer and a few others, had a feast in making the Model 1871 rifles for the arsenals at Danzig, Erfurt, Spandau and Amberg(Bavaria). This allowed Schilling to acquire his machinery. Spandau is/was an arsenal about 10 miles from Berlin and Spandau was the location to which the Potsdam efforts were moved. Model 1809s, or converted M 1809s, were made at Prussian Potsdam Arsenal, which is about 20 miles from Berlin, as well as Saarn(converted Monastery in 1815), Neisse, Suhl and Dresden(and maybe Gdansk-Poland).

But back to the post WWI Dalys, was there a transition back to the 48mm(standing breech to end of the watertable) from the 56mm/improved and modified A&D or were they mixed?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

In Lindner's case, I am not certain but do not think so.
Thanks for recognizing the integration of the many members of this "clan"
Best,
John

It was truly a cottage industry with "clan economics", which you've coined Mr. Mann, or "family economics", possibly with a hint of nepotism as I'm sure Lindner spread the wealth/work around to family members.

Anyone know the serial number range or serial number of the last Lindner-Daly? Maybe more correctly phrased as what is the highest recorded Lindner Daly serial number of the last range? And about what year?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

ellenbr:
Wish I knew your name as you are a wealth of studious information of unusual soundness.
Now that the BS is posted,LOL.
This may be difficult if not impossible to ascertain with certainty.
Seven years ago some old retired workers in Suhl were interviewed with the intent of learning about Lindner and his work. The consensus was that he was known but seemed to be somewhat too private for most to have remembered more than that he was an important gunmaker that did well financially.
We were able to learn a fair amount about his personal life that was not known before. Documents were ferreted out of the few remaining paper items that were not used for the war effort. Thanks to the German penchant for recording everything. That and a few pack rats that threw out nothing !!!LOL
We were not able to locate any factory records and my thinking is that Lindner tossed them. Remember---his only child, that he trained in fine gunmaking and fully expected to take over the business, had been killed very early in the war. He must have been greatly affected and saw little left to live for.

It is entirely possible that the last very few guns were of Schuler finishing. I do not doubt that is possible. Everything I learned about this man was that he accepted nothing less than perfection in his life and would not have allowed anything that bore his mark to pass out without his approval.But, there is the supposition that his mark was used after his retirement.
Having learned this man, as well as possible so long after his working years and death, I may be in error. But, I think that he approved the Schuler building from leftovers and approved their shipment to Daly.
Therefore that last real Lindner built gun may never be known unless the Schuler records throw some light. I wish that they were available.
Best regards,
John

Mr. Mann:

Sure my info is unusual, but if it were solely mine, time might prove something otherwise than sound. As I've stated before, my sources such as GGCA, and Ken's valiant efforts; DGJ, yours and Hans contributions; Mr. Cate's text; chance meetings, such as with Mr. Bob Jones; and general observation are to be noted and given credit. My mother says that I seem to be a child of the Depression, just about 40 years late, but I guess the pack-rat in me can be traced to my German roots.

At any rate, examples such as Mr. Hallquist's 1924 Daly seem to point toward being finished by Schuler with tubes from Sempert & Krieghoff finished by Moritz Schilling, or someone with similar "M.S." initials. Sempert & Krieghoff/Heinrich Krieghoff with his older brother Ludwig, Jr. not only was able to acquire the machinery of Valentine Christoph Schilling but in the mid to late 1930s acquired some machinery from the Erfurt/(Saarn transfered facility) arsenal(I think the Treaty of Versille called for it to be privatized(?)), which was some of the Simson/BSW/Gustloff-Werke(if very late 1930s) machinery. I think Schuler and Sempert & Kreighoff were closely intertwined. The subject frame is the shorter 48mm version which I don't think Lindner, living, would have allowed. Lindner may or may not have approved it, but longarms were produced and sold until the network fully folded. Lindner was the key.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

As far as I can see, Lindner was the key to what was shipped from Suhl to Daly until his death.
There is some unconfirmed speculation that his widow allowed his mark to be used for a year or so after that time. This was probably due to the "clan" associations.
In time, ellenbr and other researchers will uncover more and perhaps better information about this man that built, supervised such outstanding shotguns.We can only hope and look to that day.
I have to take a moment of personal privilege here.
I did my very best and my bank account will attest, to bring this great man's work to us today. With the sudden death of my partner, Hans Pfingsten, that was left to me. I was not able to sustain the effort.
This man's(Lindner) guns should be built again.
I am open to listen.
Best,
John

Anyone want to venture a guess at the maker? Anyone in need of a 10 bore? Seems like a good deal: http://www.bobjonesguns.com/details.asp?id=4480S .

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Does anyone own or know the person who owns the "Sauer-made Charles Daly" on page 66 of the current issue, July/August 2009, of the "Shooting Sportsman"? Or a little info on it would be nice.


Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Raimey,

I saw the same gun in the same article and had the same question :-). I'd like to hear how the gun is marked also.

Ken

I stop in there in Bellmeade/Nashville from time to time as we talk about Mr. Highsmith, Mr. Buck and DerryDale texts. I haven't been there in several months but I don't see the Daly listed at http://www.gamefairltd.com/europe.html . It may be John's or I thought someone might have it on consignment. I also wonder if John is related to Terry Allen??? I may have to make a special trip to see the Daly and ask John if he is related to Terry.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

I found this one too; GunsInternational # 100061927

Never say never,

C.

Sticking my neck out after just getting the magazine; the gun on page 66 certainly doesn't look like a Sauer. Maybe a non-Lindner, post WW1 Daly? Yes, the markings would be nice to see.

Best,

C.

I neglected to ask John if he was related to Terry, but I didn't inquire on the "Sauer Daly" today at the Alabama Gun Collector's event in Birmingham, Alabama. The pics for the magazine were taken in February and the gun sold soon after. Now don't tar and feather the messenger but here is the jist of what he told me: "It was an early 1920s version by Sauer without the Lindner marks." I responded that it wouldn't have Lindner's marks seeing he ceased circa 1916. "Yeah, it was made by Sauer because you know Sauer was making Lindner's guns and bought him out during WWI. It was the same as a Lindner because Sauer was making Lindners." I don't know where it went and from the info he yields, neither does he.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Just a cross reference to relate to this thread: http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbt...e=0&fpart=8 with info on Featherweights by Ken:

"Sometimes it only takes one small piece of new information to enable a whole lot of old research to fall into place. That new piece of information came to me recently in the form of a photo of an original factory hang tag attached to a featherweight Prussian Charles Daly hammerless gun. As a bonus, the featherweight Daly in question was an especially beautiful and minty example of a Lindner-made Daly.

Featherweight Dalys have always been a source of frustration in my research of Prussian Charles Daly guns. While there have been almost a dozen featherweight guns recorded in the Prussian Daly database, the 1894 Schoverling, Daly, and Gales (SD&G) catalog is the last catalog that I’ve found that specifically lists a separate featherweight model. There is no mention of a featherweight model in the 1899 SD&G catalog, nor in any of the dozen or so later SD&G catalogs that I own. Yet I have personally handled many featherweight Dalys that were produced well beyond that 1894 catalog date, twenty years later in some instances. In addition to their obvious light weight - 5.5 to 6.25 lbs 12 gauge guns are typical – the featherweight Dalys are identified as “featherweight” guns right on the rib."


Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

I've been searching for the source of the forging of the Lindner Daly forend with the proverbial "bump" and the early Daly/Sauer hammer drillings have a very similar "bump" on the forend, which can be somewhat seen on the 1892 S,D & G catalogue ad. So it may be that Lindner sourced many of the forgings from Sauer. Anyone have an early Daly/Sauer hammerless drilling Model 25 a or b with a "bump". When I locate a camera I'll post a pic of the similar forends with the "bump".

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

"Messrs. Schoverling, Daly & Gales write to us as follows: "Charles Daly hammerless shot-guns are a high-grade hand-madce gun and are made in our Suhl factory were Daly guns exclusively have been made for the past thirty-five years(1871-1906) shows that they considered possibly George Lindner's shop as theirs before H. A. Lindner opened his shop). Sauer hammerless shotguns, Sauer Mauser rifles, Charles Daly three-barrel hammer and hammerless guns and combined shot and rifle are all made in the factory of Messrs. J. P. Sauer & Son, Suhl, Germany. The Daly three-barrel shotgun and rifle has always been made by them under contract for Charles Daly, and in later years has borne the names of both concerns."

From "Recreation"(1906) : http://books.google.com/books?id=S_QXAAA...;q=&f=false .

I know that I've posted this before and maybe in this thread but if correct as stated, it really gives insight as to the Daly-Lindner-Sauer connection. Some may already know/realize this but I find it insightful.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Raimey, the above is interesting. I am wondering if they really offered hammerless guns in 1871 and later a bit. They also leave out the hammer doubles in that paragraph, which probably were George Lindner guns. Interesting to note, and my memory of the exact dates is not to be trusted, but a Daly ad from ca. 1885 vehimently denies Schilling making any of their guns, but in a later ad, ca. 1903 they tout Schilling as one of their makers.

Here's what I have for now and they are organized Lindner, Sauer hammer drilling, Lindner. Either Sauer was the forend iron forge source or both Lindner and Sauer sourced the same forend iron forge source.

]




My ever vigil assistant.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Pic of Daly & Gales(bicycle guy) in 1894 in an advert in "Outing":

http://books.google.com/books?id=2GA-AAA...;q=&f=false

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse