doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com LIndner Daly Tube Steel Types

The only Charles Daly guns made by Sauer I have seen are drillings, all plainly marked "J. P. Sauer".

The so-called "Sauer Daly" on page 244 of Mr. Cate's recent Sauer book is a Lindner-made shotgun with radial interlocking (Sauer American patent 505006) Sauer barrels as discovered and described by Jeff Stephens in DGJ. The author attributes the HAL stamp on the barrels to the "mechanic that fitted the ejectors" and doesnt mention the crossed pistols below it at all. The book goes further with photos of high-grade Sauers, called Sauer "Dalys" which might have been imported by SD&G but are not marked "Charles Daly" anywhere to my knowledge. There are also photos of clearly Lindner-made guns called "Daly Sauers"- which probably started life as Sauer forgings but the Sauer connetion ended there.

If anyone has seen examples of Charles Daly-marked shotguns made by Sauer, I would welcome the reference.

I applaud the hard work it took to put out the book- which contains a great deal of good information, but would like to address this distinction before it goes further.

Very best,

C.

Actually I concur with you analysis of the info and pics you note from Mr. Cate’s book and I for one couldn’t begin to make the call. If the term “Sauer Daly” is taboo, I’d be glad to delete the term from this thread but my inquiry was an attempt to gain info on Charles Daly tube steel types and any info from the taboo “Sauer Daly” longarms may be a moot point due to the fact that a Sauer produced longarm will have Krupp steel tubes, although a deviation may exist. Knowing which facilities/makers had the means to manufacture tubes along with any tube maker’s stamps on the tube might lead one back to the maker/source. Sempert & Krieghoff(Ludwig, Sr.) offered Roechling steel tubes, as did Merkel, and were possibly the only game in town for Roechling. Heinrich Krieghoff, Ludwig’s 2nd son, left S.&K. in 1916 to hang out his own shingle and by 1919 either completed the purchase of Val. Chr. Schilling’s(Albert, Moritz & Walter) tooling or purchased Schilling’s tooling. WWI had ended and so did H.A. Lindner’s handi-work. I’m sure his network fell to the wayside and someone at S, D & G along with a contact in Suhl had to keep it together. Lugwig Krieghoff, Sr. expired in 1924 and Heinrich Krieghoff brought S.& K. under his gun making umbrella but Sempert & Krieghoff/Krieghoff-Waffen may have continued until at least 10.10.1925 as per a catalogue. Schuler and S. & K. had a relationship earlier as Schuler sourced his Mauser’s from S. & K. and could have easily sourced tubes from S.&K. or Krieghoff-Waffen.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Not to hijack the post but the name Triebel you refer to, would they have been in Potsdam?

Hey Clair...so far I am only aware of a few Sauer Daly shotguns. Fortunatly there is one currently on the market that is clearly a Sauer model 8. Here is the link:
http://www.safarioutfittersltd.com/EuropeanPage36.htm

Anyway would love to get the S/N of this one for my records but just have not gotton around to it. (Ken G if you have the s/n on this one...I would sure like to ask for it!) Gute Nacht

J. Stephens

Jeff - I don't have that particular gun either. Sorry.

Clair - The one exception to your information is the gun Jeff provided - the Daly model 80. The Daly model 80 shows up in the 1902 SD&G catalog (It is not in either the 1899 catalog or the 1903 catalog.) It is the lowest grade Daly gun offered in the catalog, retailing for $80. In the catalog write-up, SD&G makes reference to having used the "same manufacturer who makes the Daly drilling" to help them keep up with the "unprecedented demand" for Daly guns.

As the photos show, it is a very Sauer looking gun. That said, I would agree with your other points though, and I agree that the book reference has it wrong. Some high-grade Dalys have a stamps for the Sauer patent for securely attaching the rib to the barrels near the breach end of the barrels. I think that has caused some to conclude they were Sauer made guns - not true.

The SD&G enterprise fell apart in the late 20s though one could get a "Prussian Daly" for several following the break-up of the firm. This period of the Daly story is a little murky. This is why I hesitate to saw "never" on the Sauer-Daly question (other than the model 80.) That said, I have not see one, other than the drillings and the model 80.

Ken

Ken

Ken--Thanks very much. Yes, that gun does indeed have ejectors. Right now they're tripping when the gun is opened. Once that issue is taken care of, it will be heading my way. Looking forward to shooting it!

Anyone have any idea what a 185 sold for, around 1912 or so?

Come to think of it, I'm finally getting around to the real CLASS Daly. I've previously owned Belgian, Italian, and Japanese-made Dalys (both OU and sxs in the latter case). Nice to finally acquire one of the originals!

Larry,

In 1912 the model 185 retailed, not coincidentally, for $185 ($200 in 10 gauge).

Ken

Thanks, Ken! That was a fair piece of change back then.

Thanks very much for the link and information Jeff and Ken.

Just a quick clarification. Patent 505006 is incredible in that the barrels and ribs are "radial dovetailed" together, if you will (check Google Patent for a nice drawing). It was even used on drillings to lock all three barrels together mechanically at the breech negating the need for silver soldering. As Jeff noted, it must have been very expensive to produce and not many are seen.

It would be great to see the serial number and proof marks on the Sauer-Charles Daly at Safari (and compare it to it's bigger brother, a Sauer 12, which I own). Sauer seemed very protective of their brand and usually marked their guns plainly somewhere on the action and barrels. Given the number of counterfeits I have seen over the years, that's understandable. Many sellers today also advertise "Sauers" which have never seen the inside of the factory on the Aue.

Never say never with German guns.

C.

I own an identical gun in 20 gauge.
It is a Mod. 185.

Best,
John