doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Whitworth barrels - marked and unmarked

I was in a great gunshop this week and looked at a half dozen fine English (e.g. Purdey) and American guns (e.g. Lefever) with Whitworth barrels dating to the period between 1890 and 1910. Of the Whitworth barrels we looked at, they were equally divided between barrels which had the famous sheaf of wheat trademark and barrels which did not. The trademark, where it exists, is so deeply stamped in the steel that I do not think refinishing of the barrels can explain its absence on the fine guns where Whitworth barrels are unmarked. Does anyone know why some Whitworth barrels are marked and some are not?

I don't know the answer, sorry. But a question does come to mind: are you certain the unmarked bbls were really made of Whitworth fluid steel?

Which gunshop were you visiting?

Thanks

OWD

I've been thinking this over, and don't know the answer, however I don't recall seeing "sheaf of wheat" logo's on barrels with tube numbers as on Purdeys,Bosses, etc.. The ribs of these guns are invariably engraved with "Made of Sir Joseph Whitworth's Fluid Pressed Steel" either on the top or bottom. The tube numbers are stamped on the loop. and are mostly found on chopper lump barrels. I will keep better mental notes in the future.

All the best, Mal

I believe I read somewhere that the "sheaf of wheat" came from the Sir W.G. Armstrong family crest- he was CEO of Whitworth during the "Golden age" of British gunmaking- aprox 1890-1910. Just wondering, did you notice if each barrel of the guns with Whitworth Fluid Compressed Steel had each own serial number?

Yes, each barrel "tube" has a number, usualy in couplets. I'm not sure of the exact manufacturing process, but is my theory that it was a way to keep pairs of chopper lump barrels together. It does not seem to be a patent use number, as the early Whitworth barrels don't have either tube numbers or the "wheat" logo; and the tube numbers continue long after any patent was still in effect.
All the best, Mal

My 1893 Purdey pigeon gun has Whitworth, etc. engraved on the barrels. They are numbered but without the wheatsheaf mark.

A Purdey? What about a Wilkes, 79?

OWD

Is the mark the same as the "plumbed coronet" over "W" or crown over "wheat sheaf" over "W" as found on rifles from the early 1860s by Manchester Ordnance and Rifle Company. I don't believe the River Sheaf, which from which Sheffield gets its name, runs anywhere near Manchester. The Sir William George Armstrong, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armstrong_Whitworth , is an interesting lead but their ordnance companies were in competition until the merger circa 1900. Whitworth's patent was in 1874 and he displayed some prop. shafts and pistons at either the 1878 or 1889 French Expo. - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris_Exposition (France held one every 11 years in the latter part of the 19th Century) Also an advertisment in "On The Grampain Hills: Grouse and Ptarmigan Shooting, Deer Stalking, Salmon and Trout Fishing, &c." in 1882 by Whitehurst has Purdey offering longarms with Whitworth steel. On the topic of Purdey pigeon guns, what would the term "Hurlingham weight" infer?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

David J. Baker in his book "Heyday of the Shotgun" has a good discussion on pigeon guns and the "Hurlingham rules". "Under the Hurlingham rules, there was an upper limit of 7 1/2 lbs" for a shotgun. This might answer your qestion on "Hurlingham weight". And just, as an add on, pigeon shooting started out as a sport for the upper classes! Just as it is today! It is for people with deep pockets! As overheard between two individuals at a local gun store, the first guy asks the question,
"what does it cost to learn pigeon shooting?" And the other guy answers, "Oh, about $50,000"!

Thanks for all the feedback. The gunshop where I looked at the random selection of Whitworth barrels was Safari Outfitters in Millbrook, NY. I have two Lefevers with barrels marked Whitworth Fluid Steel, one c. 1891 and the other c. 1900. Neither have the wheath sheaf trademark. Both are definitely original, as found, Lefevers, so I had no reason to think that they were "fake" Whitworth barrels, yet have been curious as to why the wheat sheaf trademark was not on them. The fact that Safari Outfitters had a random selection of very high grade English guns from the same period with barrels similarly marked as Whitworth Fluid Steel, but without the wheat sheaf gives me more comfort. Thanks for the education, particularly to Mal Mac Gregor on the point that early Whitworth barrels did not have the wheat sheaf or tube numbers. I suppose the only question I have is when the transition occurred from the "early" Whitworth barrels without those markings to the "later" barrels with the markings.