doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Value; pigeon guns v. game guns

Apropos of the very interesting thread on pigeon gins, how does the value of pigeon guns stack up against the value of game guns? Assume that each gun is of equal quality, same configuration (O/U or S/S), and equal current condition. I am here defining "pigeon guns" as guns that are relatively heavy (7 plus pounds), more robust (possibly with sideclips), chambered and proofed for 2-3/4 or 3 inch shells with 1-1/4 oz. of shot, relatively long barrels (30-32 inches)and maybe single triggers, beavertail fore ends and pistol grips. I am here defining "game guns" as relatively light guns (under 7 pounds), chambered and proofed for lighter loads, two triggers, splinter fore ends and straight grips.

I say it would depend on the buyer, as to his intended purpose or desires, but for myself, I would deduct about 10% on a pigeon gun. That's simply because there are more practical hunters or shooters, than avid target shooters, [who usually already know what their next gun will be], and that makes the gun more salable, if I decide to get rid of it.

binko

Pigeon guns have risen in price in teh lats fifteen years. they used to be cheap - then the sporting clays (and live pigeon)shooters got wind of them and they went right up.

Depends on the rarity and extremity. For example, a Purdey live pigeon gun with 32" barrels and all bells and whistles will command a premium over a bog-standard Purdey game gun.

I am not finding price differences, on average, between them; quality for quality, B's & W's equal, and condition for condition.

I would add a premium for a pigeon gun.

Far less pigeon guns to choose from.

When all is equal the rarity will drive prices up.

Then factor in the current use of such guns on clays.

All equals a premium for pigeon guns.

They work good for turkeys too.

i just looked at a perfect candidate: 7.5lbs 30" Krupp Laufstahl barrels 3/4-full combo with flat rib. this is what experts call transition piece with heavier scroll engraving and no barrel weight number (those were made ca. 1912-1913). total production in this configuration was less then 400 pieces. well worth it's $3500 asking price. the barrels were made from same steel as 38cm main barrery of Bismarck/Tirpitz class battleships.
i advise for you to forget that overpirced english stuff. just remember who won the battle of the denmark strait.
fast flying pigeon much like high pheasant requires 30-32gm #6 or #7 load with mv of about 1350f/s.
oh yeh there were couple of birdies in flight engraved just ahead of trigger plate screw. not sure what they were supposed to be but perhaps they were woodpigeons the only pigeons worth shooting at. the usual weapon of european shooter is 12br browning or beretta o/u shotgun.
PS. to read more about this fascinating sport please refer to the woodpigeon the ultimate quarry by paul smith and peter thobald.

One thing about pigeon guns is that for the most part they've got near modern dimensions. Pigeon shooters liked a high stock whereas so many early American hammerless guns are really low. That's part of what drives the price in my mind, that and the nostalgia of old time pigeon shooting of course.

Destry


P.S. Woodpigeon shooting is a lot of fun I will agree. I've been out for them twice in my trips across the water and enjoyed it both time. Never been there on a "big" day but we've had good shooting both times over decoys.

If you're talking to me I can't see what you're saying.....

If two were side by side, equal except for one being a pigeon model and other being a game model, I would pay more to get the pigeon model and would feel very lucky if I didn't have to.

With Side by Side becoming more prevalent at major Sporting Clay shoots, not counting the major SxS only shoots, I agree with those that the demand for them would have to push the price up.

Fifty years ago everyone in the South hunted wild birds with 12 & 16 ga SxS's primarily. Now we hunt pen raised birds with 410's.

Hack

Sorry Joe, can't hear you.

DLH

I have always found a 2 to 1 market in favor of pigeon guns over lighter models, especially with the big three; Boss Purdey and H&H. Boswells were also highly favored. Serious shooting demands serious guns. I've always understood that the ultimate best gun by any maker was their pigeon gun.

The cream of the crop were always gameguns - these were the bread and butter of the trade. Pigeon guns were for the card sharks and back alley types...not so with the circle that were invited to shoot game.
...and besides, anyone with a cumbersome gun, thinks it's a pigeon gun!

Seems to me anyone could build a heavy gun, now a well balanced, light gun takes some skill.

Tell us about your Kimber .22 Lowell...

I wish this pigeon would stop replying to me.

now that's funny!!

Lowell Glenthorne Lowell Glenthorne
Member


Registered: April 07, 2002
Posts: 6141
Loc: Glenthorne Woods The cream of the crop were always gameguns - these were the bread and butter of the trade. Pigeon guns were for the card sharks and back alley types...not so with the circle that were invited to shoot game.
...and besides, anyone with a cumbersome gun, thinks it's a pigeon gun!

Where does this come from? Are you channeling 19th century gunmakers? Last guy who channeled people (in court, no less)was wannabe VP John Edwards...a worthy role model, indeed.

Actually Lowell- there are Pigeon Guns, and as we don't have a legal dove season here (and Hell freezes over when we ever do) all my 12 gauge shotguns are, in a way, Pigeon Guns. Ain't no better legal year around target than the "Airborne *&^%wagons" and I have many area dairy farms that give me year around practice on them.

I recently bought a 12 gauge LC Smith (my first) that was a Live Pigeon gun- 32" ventilated rib, DT, ejectors, non-auto safety, 8 lbs. 2 oz. Hawkins pad- perfect stock dims for me- patterns like gangbusters with just about any load- love some older Federal premium coppered No. 8's I found, also my AA reloads- I can't say if it is any better made or finished off than a Field Grade Smith 12 with 32" barrels-But it is a "keeper" and I use most all of my 12 gauge shotguns for barn pigeons, crows, blackbirds and other feral avaian targets.

As I love pre-1964 Winchesters like Popeye's pal Wimpy loved hamburgers, my Pigeon Grade M12 Trap gun is "finished up" just a bit better than the 5 other field grade Model 12's in my working arsenal- BUT- the fancier wood, engine turning, old milled rib and other items that make it a fine gun for clays-- but the fine choke, barrel, trigger pull and reliable cycling-you got that also with a field grade Model 12-

As far as back alley hustlers- both my late Grand Father and the man who started me as a serious waterfowler in my youth were also big purse shooters in the 1920's-and won some hefty $ back when a $1000 bill (A Texas calling card) was some real money- there still are some box bird clubs in the USA and columbaire in the Spanish speaking countries-and I'd gladly take one of the late Rudy Etchen's Purdey or Perrazi live bird guns, and assuming it fit me, take it South America for doves and be one happy guy. I just wouldn't want to burn 1000 shells a day-no matter what escopeta I was using.

But unlike others here, I get a royal charge out of your postings. I think you are like the "Court Jester" of the Double Gun Journal Shoppe BBS (emphasis on the last two initials), or perhaps even like the Plumbing contractor Dave Weber paid to raise the urinals in the Men's Room up 10 inches on the wall- To "Keep Us On Our Toes"-!!

i can't wait till i get mine and shoot some federal gold medal pater shells through it. it's a 7lb8oz gem with looong and thick Krupp laufstahl barrels and european walnut that grew in kalifornia.

Lowell,

Again comments from somebody who's never shot pigeons. In the UK pigeon shooting was a sport of the common man, gentlemen, and the gentry all. How could you imagine some back alley card shark could afford a pigeon gun from one of the big makers in the first place? Your statement really doesn't make any sense if you'd read it twice.


Destry

MarketHunter, where do you read "big makers" in the topic?
Pigeon guns v. gameguns - and not your slide-show.

What'd Ma'Paaaka say ?

It takes more talent to make a heavy gun feel light than a light gun feel light ergo the "big three". Only the best could master the craft. Competitve shooting is hard on the gun and the shooter. To be able to make gun that both will survive is the epitome of gun making.

As an example of what Older Doc states: I shoot my Purdey hammer pigeon gun almost every weekend during the summer at sporting clays. I am often squaded with good shooters who have never shot anything except O/Us and gas guns. Often after a shoot they request a few shots with my gun, and I always let them. After a couple of pairs that are "smoked" there is always a grin of delight on their faces, and a comment on how great the gun moves. The gun weighs 7#7oz. with 31 inch barrels and a 14 7/8 length of pull. and feels like a game gun. It has all the bells and whistles except ejectors which any maker can put together. It is the feel and balance that make the difference.

All the best, Mal

"All the bells and whistles," do include the ejectors.
Anyway!
I've always been taken back by the heavy gun and the owner's need to declare it a dedicated fowler, or pigeon gun.
Hey! it could be just a heavy ol'gun.
No such stories needed with the light sidelock ejector 12b gamegun.
You know right away when putting it to your shoulder.

Picky. Picky Picky.... Lowell time to pull the thorne out of the glen. A light gun is not necessarily a better gun. Any shooter that shoots a couple of flats per diem appreciates a heavier gun and more so one that is well balanced and made to perform better than any light gun.
Having flyfished for Salmo Solar for years with heavy cane rods and Bogdan reels, a well balanced rig and a good knowledge of casting technique makes using these heavy "Spey" rods a joy. Maybe that is also the point with shooting, knowing how or just talking the game.

I'll rise to the bait as well,

The factory letter on my Purdey states that the gun was completed in 1910 with 31 inch Whitworth bbls.,3 inch chambers [non-magnum], file cut rib,rounded action bar, third fastener, clip sides to action, loose front trigger[hinged], and Silvers heel plate leather covered. The hammers are short and low set with very heavy mainsprings for quick locktime. The bbls. are choked .020 and .030 with a recess behind the constriction for a "hot center" Both barels deliver 90% patterns with most target loads. The left bbl. places 70% 1-1/8 oz. 7-1/2s into 8 inches at 20 yards.[the right 55%]. Stock dimensions are "modern". Not your average heavy old gun! There is no need for ejectors in the pigeon ring, or the clays course.
All the best, Mal

I can think of many hunts, that I've been on, where I would have been willing to trade that 8lb. duck or pigeon gun for one like my 12 ga 6 lb. 3 oz. bird gun, and pay some boot. When you are duck hunting, at Pecan Island, La., in the marsh, where every step you are up to your crotch in marsh grass and mud, and also in Picayune, MS, where you will walk miles of hills and swamp, hunting quail and woodcock, the lighter gun will prove its worth. So, this all comes down to the purpose for having the weapon.

If you are just going to the skeet or trap field, the heavy guns are decidedly better, but I suggest there are way more hunters than clays shooters, and therefore more potential buyers for the lighter weapons. I know, I have ALL the 8 lb. guns I will ever own, and that's only 2.

JMHO

binko

Binko...You been in the marsh alot with yer H&H gamegun have ya.

6 lb 3 oz verses 7 lb 7 oz...I bet the heavier gun would handle better.
Would a man really notice carrying 1 lb 4oz more weight ?


I'm betting the Pine tree Lowell props his Beesley against for pictures doesn't feel the difference.

No jO-jO, I have never, nor do I ever, plan to take my H&H in the marsh, but I guarantee you, that if you would ever have hunted anything but those "barnyard turkeys" that you kill, you would have noticed the 1.5 lb. difference in weight after a full days hunt. I don't have any desire to trudge through the marsh like I used to do, but even on these quail hunts, I usually take 2 guns, a 7.5 lb. Parker, which I hunt the first part of the day, and my 6.25 lb. W. A. Groves boxlock on the last part, and I definitely notice the difference, and welcome it. I realize it really don't matter when you just have to walk to the back of the property, sit down on your stool, and shoot a couple of baited turkeys.

You should be aware that your statement, ["6 lb 3 oz verses 7 lb 7 oz...I bet the heavier gun would handle better.
Would a man really notice carrying 1 lb 4oz more weight ?"],
really shows your ignorance of real problems incurred on a real hunt. It could be that you have someone to carry your gun for you, or you are just in far better shape than most of the people I know , which would answer a lot of questions, but regardless, weight is a factor for most people, so I deduct $ for heavier guns!

Of Course, IJMO!

binko

Krupp Laufstahl barrels? AH Fox guns until about 1918 had Krupp or Krupp Flusstahl (fluid steel) barrels, then after Wilson's wife convinced him to enter the "War To End All Wars", old Kaiser Willie stopped shipping those fine steel tubes from Essen to Germantown, Phila US of A. What are Laufstahl barrels?

Saw a beautiful Lindner Daly 10 gauge double yesterday (same dealer who has the 10 gauge 2 & 7/8" paper shells Market Hunter wants) 32 inch Krupp barrels, cocking indicators, DT- ejectors, and NO- sling swivels, cheek piece or Germanic carvings- heavy, well balanced, very impressive- Thinking about it--maybe, maybe not.

Any man who has the good taste to use Stan Bogdan's "Rolex" reels is welcome at my table. I bought three LH wind Bogdans from Bill Hunter many years ago- also some Wedding Cake Fin-Nors and a few of Captain Mac's early Sea Masters. Never went wrong on investing in high end fly reels (sorry- no Walkers or Vom Hofe's) also have some early RH Hardy Perfects- tell you why- friends of mine got "burned" by a "gent" now living in FL- on faked Paynes and Garrison and Gillum cane rods- But a fly reel is pretty straight forward- and it either works, or it doesn't- no concern that the former Heddon 3 pc. 8 foot 5 wt. became a Payne 201- wraps, blueing on ferrules and pinned ferrules, cork grip shapes, hang tags- lotsa traps for the unwary on older vintage cane rods. I use W&M Granger 3 pc. rods, the "poor man's Leonards" and they work great and don't blow holes in your American Express card when you buy one- Nice to hear from a brother fly fisherman herein- your words are words of wisdom- RWTF

FM, your almost encyclopedic knowledge of 'off the cuff stuff' continues to amaze me. . . you must be savant or something.
I know who you speak of in Florida too...

Last fish released caught on a huge green wolfe. 28 lbs of water skiing power- Does your beer do that? [img]<a
[img]http://s144.photobucket.com/albums/r165/...odge009crop.jpg[/img] http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r165/olddocphotos/KedgewickLodge009crop.jpg" alt="" />[/img]

[img]http://s144.photobucket.com/albums/r165/...odge009crop.jpg[/img]

[img]<a href="http://s144.photobucket.com/albums/r165/olddocphotos/?action=view&current=KedgewickLodge009crop.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r165/olddocphotos/KedgewickLodge009crop.jpg" border="0" alt="Salmo Solar"></a>[/img]

Laufstahl barrels are fluid steel barrels; i.e., not damascus.

Lauf is German "to walk or to run".
Stahl is German for steel.
I don't see that lauf can be translated to "fluid" but I'm always open to learning.

j0e, your replies are starting to sound more bitter by the day!

[quote=Lowell Glenthorne I've always been taken back by the heavy gun and the owner's need to declare it a dedicated fowler, or pigeon gun.
Hey! it could be just a heavy ol'gun.
No such stories needed with the light sidelock ejector 12b gamegun.

[/quote]

Heavy guns were made that way for a reason; there was purpose in the weight. In no particular order of importance:

1. Heavy guns allow the shooting of more powerful shells without punishing recoil,

2. Heavier guns generally require more swing effort and, as a result, have smoother/more stable handling,

3. Heavier guns are as robust to heavy loads as light guns are to light loads,

4. A cheaper gun can be made more robust by adding weight.

High phesant, light fowler, and pigeon guns share a lot of similarities. It is difficult,usually, to tell the exact original purpose. Also, keep in mind that if one is to choose a single gun for all shotgun shooting purposes, this is the most likely purpose class of guns from which to choose. Most American built guns were heavy not because the American makers didn't know how to make a light gun. Rather, they were heavy because Americans bought a duck gun as first priority and then used it for everything. Those who purpose bought the lighter American offerings bought game guns for the uplands.

Not always true, many guns were mass produced with little thought going into the gun other than how cheap and how many.
Today's buyer would rather be told its a duck/pigeon gun than a farmer's seed store gun.

Can't agree, LG. The steel in a gun cost a lot of money back then. A cheap gun would have been made as light as the design vs power of likely ammo vs projected number of shooting cycles would allow. The JABC seed store guns, which still had to pass Belgian proof, were made just heavy enough to withstand a reasonable number of American powerful loads; neither unlimited number of cycles nor unlimited power. You have to admit that those old guns were remarkably robust for what they cost. I don't think anyone confuses these with pigeon guns. Duck guns, yes, because that is about what they were. IMO, a duck gun with a typical load also makes a might fine chicken coop varmit gun.

Does the origiunal post sound like were talking about feed store guns Lowell ?

And Bunko any day you wish to follow me in my steps come on up...I'll carry my 10.5 lb fowler you can bring your clapped out paper weight.

We may not choose to describe in English the movement of fluid steel under pressure as "walk" or "run," but the concept of the steel moving is logical, no matter what word for movement you choose. Concept words in one language often are not as limited as translation tries to make them.

6SXS
Member


Registered: February 21, 2006
Posts: 290
Loc: Andover MA Lauf is German "to walk or to run".
Stahl is German for steel.
I don't see that lauf can be translated to "fluid" but I'm always open to learning. I can't say that German is my thing, but if you Google "Krupp Laufstahl" you will find a lot of barrels are so marked, indicating that the barrels are constructed of that material: possibly a trademark or an idiom differentiating running or molten steel barrels from twist or damascus barrels.

I'll be right up jOe, thanks for the invite! I've just never met a man that would carry a 10.5 lb. gun on a long trek when he could carry a 6.25 lb. one. It's kind of like that guy that always climbed a tree when he wanted to tell a lie, when he could have just stayed on the ground and told the truth...no sense in it!!!

binko

Thanks Dean. Appreciate that you left off the "I" prefix that sometimes preceeds Savant. A boyhood chum inherited a nice lot of Payne, Leonard and Gillum rods- from a bachelor uncle whose last name was Paine. Like many of us, he got into a financial bind (nasty divorce) and needed to "liquidate" some of those Steinway cane rods-told me later, re his dealings with the "gentleman" in FL who we will not name herein (Libel suits are nasty too) that until you have been "screwed" by --- you don't know what "screwed" really means. I have heard of "buy low" and sell higher- the principle that keeps Jack Puglisis, Herschell Chadick and Bill Jaqua (now Ret'd.) in "the game", but it is one thing to make a fair profit (cover your overhead and have a little "extra") and quite another to be rapacious in your dealings.

We had a gent at an area gun club- had the Clark Gable look and charmed the garters off the area widows and picked up some fine guns at about 10% of what they were worth-and then bragged about his "conquests" later-smooth talking snake oil salesman. Strange thing- you being in a car dealership, you must know what happens to a Cadillac DeVille when the brake lines develop a "sudden leak"- he lost control of his Caddy on his way to some "special deal" the story goes- sooner or later, the crooks get their "come-uppance" even Satan has a special place next to Cerberus I hope, awaiting Senor B. Madoff--Fortunately, most gun collectors "network" and the word of a bad apple gets out, ditto the cane rod market.

Friend Walt Carpenter once told me most of the Paynes and other quality rods (Walt worked for Payne even when Jim died in the 1960's I believe) that he had for sale, some years ago, were snapped up by Japanese collectors who wouldn't know a set of Super-Z ferrules from a stripper guide with a cracked red agate insert- Such is life my friend--

RWTF, I have to point out that James Julia is not in the business of BUYING and selling guns. He is an auctioneer, and sells guns [and a myriad of other things] for consignors, very seldom [ far less than 1 %] for himself; and then mostly items that have been "bought in" and the consignor did not want them returned so he purchased them to clear accounting. I have been cataloging for him for the last three auctions, and know of what I speak. You should be more carefull.
Mal

Point taken Mr. Mac. I only know of James Julia from the big ads he places in Gun Digest (aka- Gun List) and that old Cabela's pal Wes Dillon works for him. There are two enterprises that will always prosper, even during the "Madoff Months of Malaise" ahead- for those who believed in the NYSE anyway: Undertakers and Auctioneers. I just surmised Mr. Julia was a dealer because I read in Field & Stream, under Mr. Fijestads column, about the rumored Czar Nicholas Parker that Mr. Puglisi bought from Mr. Julia's auction house. I shall go back and delete Mr. Julia's name from the previous post- post haste!! RWTF

Lowell,

The reason I don't put you on my blocked list is that what you say makes me chuckle.

I'd love to see you with your "light game gun" on a pass shoot for geese on a day it's blowing a gale.

I'll pack the 10 gauge and those big heavy cartridges no problem on a day like that. You can bring your little popgun and powderpuff shells to go along with it. We'll see who's got a couple at the end of the flight.


Destry

Put me also on the "chuckle list" Destry. Different strokes for different folks, but you make a very valid point- especially to an old waterfowler like moi- a nice light Evans or J. Wilkes 12 bore for the short Limey shells over at Walpole in late Nov. with a big wind zipping across Lake St. Clair and the Canadas hammering their wings against that gale-that's like a cement contractor showing up for a foundation pouring with an eggbeater to mix the cement, gravel and water.

But to be fair to Lowell, and I take him like I do Letterman- great entertainment but not necessarily "Good to ride the long and hard trail with", and he does add plenty of seasoning to the stew we have on this site- lotsa sparks, some spirited disagreement, all in good fun. He might also be perplexed with a 9 and 1/2 lb. Parker GH 10 bore or a 12 HE Fox in the dove blind or grouse woods.

I think that for the same reason(s) Parker, Ithaca, Fox and Smith may have given out special "highly decorated models" - ie: The Sousa Ithaca SBT-to promote their regular line, they may have also liked the great advertising when Joe Columbaire won the big money in the pigeon rings with his: Parker, Smith, Purdey-etc. The barrel steels and chokes, ejectors, triggers, all the basics were as on the regular hunting guns they produced, just the extras-and my favorite guns, the pre-WW11 Winchesters=- they didn't come up with Trap Grade, Tournament Grade and then Pigeon Grade for nothing- Winchester started its dominance of the pumpgun area of the market as live bird shooting was in its peak, and the ATA had yet to establish its grounds at Vandalia, OH-- RWTF

Lowell I think Ma'Parker is sweet on you...


chuckle chuckle

WTF do I care MarketHunter...block me!
Besides, I'd like to see you, or your big gun go over hill'n dale.

Over hill and rolling down the dale I bet....

chuckle chuckle

Some of these threads are really going to be a pleasure to read without you Lowell. Adios....

DLH

Mal, unless I'm missing something, I don't see where RWTF made reference to Jim Julia... not that I'm defending RWTF, I just read back from the first page and saw nothing. Maybe I'm losing my vision too...

Okay, now I see that RWTF deleted the reference.

Rocketman and HOS... point taken and noted. Yours make sense to me, thanks.

Dean

See what ya done Lowell now we got to look at pictures of Ma'Parker.

Lowell Sir, I was under the impression that Holland, Boss, Purdey
and any other good makers produced their "pidgeon guns" for exactly that, live competetive pidgeon shooting, now illegal in the UK but very popular still in Spain, Mexico and other places I believe. Now this competion uses heavy loads so the guns are heavier, here in Huelva the normal load is 36 grams HV of no.6 through an O/U choked full and full. (I know you chaps in the states probably don't think that is a heavy load but it is in Europe and you wouldn't want to fire that stuff through a normal 6 1/2 lb English game gun, The pidgeon guns I have seen from the big makers are usually 7 1/4 - 8 lbs, best, Mike

To my knowledge, you are quite correct, Mike. I'd add that not all big guns are pigeon guns and not all pigeon guns are of high grade finish. Most big guns are fowlers and relativly plain of finish. However, there are both high finis fowlers and plain finish pigeon guns. Some of the heavy guns were made as dual use, fowler during the week and a suitable pigeon gun on the weekend. The far stronger issue from buying a "pigeon" gun is to buy a gun that suits your purpose and fits you with the minimum amount of modification.

Thanks again Dean-and if Mal is a friend of yours, he's OK in my book too. I did include James D. Julia with Jack Puglisi and Herschell Chadick at first- if we are here to 'split hairs' as Julia's has the BATF and the 4473, and guns are sold under his "hammer time", he might be a dealer, in a manner of speaking. I did read about the Czar's Parker, after Jack bought it from the Julia auction, do you know where it is now.

I added the note about friend, albiet retired with his daughter Cam running the "store" in Findlay, OH- Bill Jaqua. I am sure many others on this site have known and dealt with a similar person of high character and integrity in their "neck of the woods", as I am Ohio boy, and Bill is a Findlay "native son", he's the one I know best.

With an uncertain economy and many "sharks on patrol" on this and other gun auction sites, if I had to pay a tad more to deal "face to face" with an established and reputable dealer, I would consider that $ well spent. Thanks again for your kind note Dean, much appreciated. Let me know if you are ever looking for some "high end" fly fishing tackle, I still "network" a little and perhaps can help you out-as long as we stay out of FL.

Oooops! Put this in the wrong thread. Well, I'm adding it to the Purdey ML question, but leaving it here as it seems interesting and we do have a game weight gun vs a pigeon gun, albiet ML's.


The links below ar to the upcoming Holt's auction. The first gun, JOSEPH LANG & SONS, LONDON,A FINE CASED 11-BORE DOUBLE-BARRELLED PERCUSSION LIVE PIGEON GUN, serial no. 3875, is estimated at £7,000-9,000

http://auctions.holtandcompany.co.uk/asp...8&saletype=

The second gun, ALEXR. MARTIN, GLASGOW,A SCOTTISH 12-BORE DOUBLE-BARRELLED PERCUSSION SPORTING GUN, circa 1840, is estimated at £300-500

http://auctions.holtandcompany.co.uk/asp...5&saletype=

The devil here is in the details. Anyone care to take a shot at explaining the difference in estimation? I could guess, but some of you may know.

A guess:

The estimate on the Lang is very optimistic. I think £3,000-4,000 is more like it. Plus, it looks like the Lang is a top-quality gun that's in excellent shape and in its original case with a lot of accessories. It's also a London maker with a lot of name recognition.

The Martin looks like a medium to low-grade gun. It has cut bbls and it is not cased. And Glasgow ain't London.

OWD

This topic, should have been titled - Searching for reasons my gun, is a pigeon gun!
Hell, my very long gone Merkel #8 coulda fit the bill, and it was just a heavy gun with slideclips.

OK Lowell- and you spelled the "flying *&^% wagon" bird properly, Pigeon- now Pidgeon, that was the late actor Walter Pidgeon. Actually saw a "counterfeited Model 12" Pigeon Grade with a rather crappy looking chicken etched on the magazine tube extension and it was spelled Pidgeon Grade- tried to explain to the "dude" at the table at the gun show that was not correct, but as they say, you can't outshoot your gun, outwalk your boots or win an argument with a fool (or one who has been fooled)-

The shotgun writer for Field & Stream picked his 50 best shotguns- Yup the overpriced Limey Purdey was No. 1 (at just 6 figures, in case you won the Power Ball) and the Kraut Merkel was in the last sector. He mentioned receipt of a Merkel 12 O/U "for evaluation" and when he couldn't get the forearm on when assemblying the shotgun, called and spoke with a Merkel gunsmith that said "You have to hit it very very hard"- Humm-sounds like the old shop saying I heard years ago "Never use force, just get a bigger hammer from the tool crib". I'm NOT an over-under man, they all feel like a 2x4 turned sideways in my hands, but then, I've never handled a Woodward or a Boss-C'est La Vie!!

I just bought a Purdey a couple of months ago. Vent rib, tight choked, weighing in at 7.6 pounds. I was not looking for a game gun.

I am over the moon with it! ;-)

RWTF, Malcolm MacGregor needs no endorsement from the likes of me. He is well known and highly respected in any and all shooting circles involving good (fine) doubles.

Thanks Dean. I have never heard of him, so that's why I segued back to you, as you know waaaay more guys in the double gun world that I do, or ever will. Does he write for one of the "trade" magazines? Is he a Scotsman? I know of Michael McIntosh- I have his books Best Guns (first ed.) and the first gun book, The Best Seven ever made-, and of course, the lates Gene Hill and Rudy Etchen.

I live in a rural area, the few "two holers" for the shotgun area I see afield are mainly Over-Unders. We had a "Tower" or "European" shoot at the pheasant club last Nov. I had just bought the older Smith live bird gun (12 of course-no other gauge exists for me except maybe the 10)32" Imp. Mod. and Full with factory vetilated rib, DT, Ejectors, non-auto safety, Hawkins pad- one and 1/4 lbs. lighter than my previous Fox HE- we had 16 "guns" for the Morning Tower shoot- ten birds, then a "break" and you rotate positiions. I counted 7 Over-Unders (mostly 12 Gauge Brownings and Berettas) 5 pumpguns (all Remington 870's)three auto-loaders (all Benellis) and moi- the only "gunner" with a side-by-side. And we have members who (prior to Bernie Madoff anyway) wrote their income in 7 figs.

I was "high gun" for the Tower shoot, also shot the two "money birds" which won a bonus hunt for me and a guest (you are invited if you ever get to the State of Grand-Stand-Holm, by the way) actually, am taking a Vet from the nearby Grand Rapids veterans Home for another Tower event in late March-but I'd still keep the invite open for you- you are a really good guy in a world that seems to have forgotten the "guy Code" IMO..

Anyway, there are those who might look down on preserve birds,as "canned" hunts but it is cheaper than going out to SD for a packaged hunt, and I can take my one hunting son-in-law, as he can go on a Sat. or Sun. but to take a week off work to go Out West for birds-might be a bit "snug" at this point in time.

I also carried that Big Smith all afternoon for the "pick-up" hunt- 340 acres- 4 sectors and we all had guides with good Labs- I go in a lot of "2nd. barrel work" and that Smith balances so well, I didn't mind the 8 lbs. My "$" gun, the one shotgun I will Always take when the chips are on the table- weighs 7 and 1/2 lbs. and I carry that all day w/o breaking a sweat-Yup- you guessed it- the 12 gauge 1937 Model 12 30" Full-

Now-, Dean, please answer my question if you can. Do you know where the fabled Czar's Parker is now residing?

The shotgun writer for Field & Stream picked his 50 best shotguns- Yup the overpriced Limey Purdey was No. 1 (at just 6 figures, in case you won the Power Ball) and the Kraut Merkel was in the last sector. He mentioned receipt of a Merkel 12 O/U "for evaluation" and when he couldn't get the forearm on when assemblying the shotgun, called and spoke with a Merkel gunsmith that said "You have to hit it very very hard"- Humm-sounds like the old shop saying I heard years ago "Never use force, just get a bigger hammer from the tool crib". ________________________________________________________________OOne of the problems with this observation is that there are so many variables to the make-up of a "quality" shotgun; thus, the continuing viewpoint on this board that it is the gun not the name that needs to be assessed. I think that this view is often futile as it requires one to bet against the marketplace, which says that Purdeys, for instance, are the best guns and therefore are the most valuable. That said, however, there were at least a few years (decades?) when Purdey quality reached a fairly low ebb, especially mechanically. One could argue that the Engish best guns' current imitation of Italian guns also represents a fairly low ebb, either in creativity or aesthetics. In any event, in assessing Merkels and other German guns, the date of manufacture is absolutely critical. Clearly, for instance, guns from pre 1960ish are head and shoulders above those currently manufactured in Germany and German guns (Merkel, Greifelt, Sauer and the dozens of other quality Suhl manufacturers that disappeared in WW II) of pre-war manufacture are the equal of any other country's. They're rarer too. I know this is not reflected in the market and I don't expect that it ever will be.

And that's because German contraptions tend to be, well, esthetically questionable.

Some are, some aren't--awfully subjective anyway. Here's an interesting review of a new Merkel, which are shadows of the old ones. http://www.shootinguk.co.uk/guns/276350/Merkel_303_20bore_shotgun_review.html

Lowell in your opinion what makes a pigeon gun a pigeon gun ?

Thanks HOS for your informed viewpoints. I guess part of my objection to the Merkels is the deep and massive top lug system -is that the Kersten design? Probably also why I don't like the older Belgian Browning Superposed either- the Berettas seem to be slimmer in the juncture of barrels and receiver. I'm also "Old School" set a lot of store by the late Paul A. Curtis- in his 1934 book "Guns and Gunning" he expressed his distain of the German shotguns- "Germany, where some of the world's worse shotguns are being made", and was a devout "Anglophile", shot British best sidelocks most of his adult life I believe. You are right about the name recognition- Purdey, Rolex, Steinway and the inherent quality that "marque" brings to the market, new or "previously owned". A good friend with some experience in "London Bests" once advise me that "If you ever win the Irish Sweepstakes and decide to buy a Purdey or Churchill or Holland & Holland or Boss 'used' remember that most were made to fit the original purchaser, and aren't 'off the rack' like your field grade Model 12's" I am sure he was right-

Nice to see you haven't lost your 'sense of humor' there HoJo. I won't attempt to answer for Lowell: BUT- any gun you can cleanly kill pigeons with is a pigeon gun.

Shotgun guru the late Rudy Etchen shot some fine Purdey guns, but he also shot and won some sizeable purses "on the circuit" with his fabled Remmie 870 12 bore. I would think we'd all agree that 12 gauge is the standard here- chokes, barrel lengths and shotshell selection-variables I am sure. Of course, if you have bribed the City Fathers of Memphis so that you can 'pop off' the pigeons poopin' on the Peabody plaza- I'd go with a "suppressed Ruger .22LR, scoped and with sub-sonic hollow points- a favorite 'hit man' weapon for another kinda pigeon- a "stoolie"-- Good huntin' RWTF

Francis, do you dislike German guns because of Curtis? I do not like the Merkels either BUT there is a lot of Sauers and Daly's that I would and am dying for. Such as that damascus sidelock Sauer in the current Shooting Sporthsman Magazine. I just could never make a blanket statement such as that.

tim

Truth is very few German shotguns can poke their head's out from under that blanket.

Good question Tim. Most of the German shotguns (including the Drillings) have the cheek pieces, inset trap doors for gadgets (not like the BP on a M-1 Garand or M-14 for cleaning rods)sling swivels and some have the garish carved stocks- But last Sat. I looked long and hard at a Lindner Daly 10 bore- 32" made for the US market I'd guess- DT, AE- spinter, half-pg- fine engraving, top of receiver cocking indicators, and for it's 9.5 lbs. weight-better balanced than my former HE Fox (same aprox wt. and barrel length)- Very impressed. Just because I have read and re-read Capt. Paul A. Curtis' 1934 book doesn't mean I buy" his views 100%- much has changed since 1934 in the World gun trade-

I am a bit "Old School" however, and just as I have hated to see the machine tools, etc. go "Chi-Com" (I treasure the Brown & Sharpe, Stanley, Lufkin, and Starrett tools of my relatives that rest in Gerstner (made in OHIO) lined tool boxes in my "Den-gun room") and they feel as right in my hands today as when my GrandFather taught me to read a micrometer "sticky tight". So even back in 1934- assuming I was "in the chips" like Joe Kennedy or Dr. Charles Cadwaller Norris of Chestnut Hill (old money) I'd have bought an American side by double, and nopt one from England, Germany, France, Italy or Timbuktoo.

I saw a fine Sauer und Sohn 12 ejector double, DT, pg, splinter believe 28" metric equiv. length for $900.00- Heavy like a 12 gauge M21 or a VHE Parker on a No. 2 frame- but closed like a bank vault and very fine triggers and well timed ejectors (I used snap caps with the owner's permission).

Still keeping that older BH 16 in mind for you- I only will buy a 12 or possible an older std. 10 bore gun, not just as an "investment" but that's what I shoot best-but unlike you and your boys, I don't hunt "small birds"- no grouse or woodcock or quail in my game plans-RWTF