doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com J.P. Sauer & Sohn 20 - Deal or No Deal

Saw a very neat 20 in a pawn shop. Just seeking opinions...

The Good: 27" barrels, choked Mod/IM, 70%+ Case colors, original grip cap, Wood and checkering original with minor handling ding, blue is about90%, engraving is very fine with pointers and birds, Greener crossbolt, side clips, ejectors, shiny bores, schnaebel(?) type F/E, miller single trigger.

The Odd: Lufftwaffen (forgive my spelling) marked with eagle and swastika and dated 1944. Very low serial # (10xx). I found this odd that a sporting firearm would be made during the war. Hence the "pre-war, post-war" designations. Possible officer's special order?

The Bad: Missing the front bead (Ivory?), has 2 spacers (1 black, 1 white) each 1/4" long and a ratty redhead recoil pad. LOP from the wood to the trigger is 13-1/2". 15" with all the extra crap. Cut? And for the grand finale: If you look down the bores you can definetely see where the chambers have been lengthened.
Why would this be done on a 20 gauge? In 1944 it would have allready been chambered for 2-3/4" shells. Were there short chambered 20 gauge guns? Does this detract from the value?

Price is $1100

Opinions and comments please

The history is interesting. Any guess is good when it comes to Hermann Goring's Luftwaffe. A sportsman with great estates filled with game, he entertained royally a couple pilots who arrived by parachute and sent them off in a special carriage to Stalag Luft III. (Allied air crew were considered his personal prisoners, untouchable by the Wehrmacht.) Maybe the guns were made for Luftwaffe elite. In the condition described, I'd pass on it even for its historical interest. There are good pre-war Sauers around for less than $1100.

Ironman:

Marked as you describe, it was probably used to teach the Luftwaffe pilots to shoot ??..... The same as American Pilots used LC Smiths to learn the basics -(lead and lag-high-low-close-far) -of aerial gunnery during WWII and those Elsies were all marked with the "flaming bomb"...(serial number range in Brophy's book)..........being an old fighter pilot, we did the same thing........it was probably a bring back from Germany ??

Best Regards,

i have seen ca. 1944 sporting guns from "suhl und zella mehlis werke". me thinks one should not be able to tell that chambers have been lengthened by looking into them.
many ole' sauer game guns in 12ga and 16ga are light enough so there is no real plus in getting one chambered for 20ga. low grade old sauers are pretty much "dime a dozen" guns. i would say no deal.

When you look down the barrels you can see a very slight ridge 3/4 of the way down the chamber that appears in both barrels right before the forcing cones. I couldn't measure them but it sure looked to be lengthened. I'm a novice, but I've inspected hundreds of SxS's and never noticed those ridges before. If they weren't lenghtened, then it would appear to be poor craftmanship and that doesn't fit with the rest of the gun.

Would a low grade sauer have the engraving patterns that this one has? I'm not sure how to calculate % of coverage. But a guess would be 70-80% including the fences. I've seen grade 3 ithacas that didn't have as nice of coverage.

I'm leaning towards "No Deal" as well anyway. Thanks for the replys.

Before a call on deal or no deal is made, Howie, we need some additional info. First, the serial number is very low and for a typical Sauer should be in the 33X,XXX/34X,XXX range. Some of the Sauer-Dalys had an odd serial number range near 1k. Does it have Daly features? Any idea if the Miller single is a Miller and is it original? What is the month of proof? By mid 1944 the Soviets were pressing from one theatre with the Brits and Yanks were pressing from another. Not may longarms left Suhl for their appointed destinations. In 1943 Sauer produced a couple hundred over 3k and I'm sure the 1st part of 1944 saw production with what they had on hand as best they could with the conditions. I would lean toward it being for one of the game preserves of whomever and not used by the RLM seeing it was a 20 bore and by this time they were using the Model 33s(O/U). Are the stamps for the chamber dimensions 65mm? I would like to know what all the marks are as well as the model or type, boxlock, flatop, scalloped, etc.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Boxlock receiver, chambers are marked 65mm. I am so unfamilliar with Daly features that I wouldn't even venture a guess. Miller trigger is clearly stamped and looks to be original (How do you tell for sure?) I'll see if I can slide down one evening this week and check out all the proof marks and post accordingly.

Thanks again.

Does it have a screw in the forend just forward of the hingepin and does it have any features similar to this Daly: http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/conten...erarchyId=11653 , like pin configuration, scalloped frame, roundtop, possibly sideclips ? Sauers with factory original single triggers are pretty rare birds. The examples I have seen had the "Infallible" by Lancaster Arms Company and I think were offered by V,L & D in the 1930s. Mr. Cate has a pic of a Sauer Daly Model 45 in 28 bore with an "Infallible" and the selector atop the frame to the left of the toplever. Also, what type steel tubes does it have and was the crossbolt circular or rectangular?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

I'll have to check on screw/pin placement. That detailed stuff doesn't stick with me yet when I look at a double. It definetly had side clips but it also had a crossbolt that protrudes out when opening/closing.

I think that the sides of the receiver had the same shape and pattern that the Daly in the picture. But the lock up was entirely different with the side clips and crossbolt. No scallops just straight boxlock.

I'll get the other info you have requested asap. Thanks.

Is the Luftwaffe acceptance mark of the Luftwaffe Eagle over a Swastika on the right tube as well as the rightside of the stock? Are there any single or double SS Runes on the tubes anywhere? The Daly example I posted was just for the frame type and pin locations and not the lock-up. I was curious if the Sauer 20 bore in question had overhanging and intercepting scears.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse