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The "rest of the world" hasn't been able to "fend for themselves" since the war "without significant assistance from the United States"?

Larry, I envy your shotgun acumen, contributed generously to the board. Your errant chauvinism really hangs out with this clanger!

You must be agitating just for the hell of it.

Lets see, Canadian Defense expenditures are right at 1% of GDP.

Canada ranks 132nd in the world in gross defense expenditures. Canada has sheltered under the US defense umbrella provided by NORAD, the North American Aerospace Defense Command. Canadian air defense forces are great but ill equiped and very small, much smaller than they would be if Canada had to stand alone. Ditto for her ground forces, very small in number--fine soldiers and great comrades--poorly outfitted and not equiped with the latest gear.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_Forces


Same for Canadian sea lanes of communication and trade. Small Navy, old ships, no nuke subs, the US and the UK defend the GIUK--Greenland-Iceland UK sea area and the shipping lanes and Russian naval recce and attack lanes.

Give me a break. I love Canada and Canadians, but 1% of GDP spent on defense in this and the last world order is a joke. The US has a great friend and neighbor in Canada, but let's be real.

By the way, my appreciation for the state of Canada's Defenses come from personal experiences and many comments from Canadian military men over beer late into the night.



Quailnut

I guess it's where your priorities are, quailnut. You put your finger on it in that Canada does not stand alone. As far as defense goes, Canada is always first in in the big ones, shoulder to shoulder with its allies. It stays clear of calamitous foreign adventures that drain a nation's soul, builds an admired multicultural social system, the strongest financial and banking system in the world, and our casualties per capita are the highest of ISAF forces in Afghanistan.

Canada does not share the near worship of the military as the United States nor the noted peculiar contradiction of the unwillingness of Americans to serve in the armed forces, elites and masses alike. (See The New American Militarism; How Americans are Seduced by War by Andrew Bacevich, Oxford, 270 pp , 16 pounds.) We're not into preaching and imposing democracy at the point of a rifle. Expensive stuff.

I don't know of any country that has ever been judged on its responsible independance by its defence expenditures. The current insurgencies taught us that size has its limits. But the point I was suggesting is Canada, biggest customer of 34 US states, biggest supplier of US gas and oil, active US partner in the war on terror, doesn't buttle to any country when it comes to fending for its citizens.

Larry & King Brown have hijacked this thread to have a p$$ing contest.
Get back on course Gentlemen and discuss the Lead shot ban, or p$$ off.

Salopian, you remind me of the little brother who provokes his big brother, then yells for help from his parents. "Mommy, it all started when he hit me back."

You're the one who took this whole threat off topic to start with.

King, bravo for your brave little country. But I don't think Canada had the resources to do what the United States did after WWI, where Herbert Hoover was regarded almost as a saint (long before he became president) for feeding the starving masses of Europe. Not to mention the Marshall Plan after WWII. And it took numbers (not to mention nukes) to stand up to the Russians after WWII and keep them from occupying even more of Europe than they already had. There wasn't another nation in the world, nor a collective group of nations, capable of doing that without the United States.

Next time something like Bosnia or Kosovo comes up, I guess we should just leave it to our NATO allies to take care of it. Why were they incapable of handling that mess--right in their own backyard--without our intervention?

As for imposing democracy with force . . . seems to have worked pretty well in both Germany and Japan. Amazing how people forget those relatively recent examples.

And Americans are unwilling to serve in the military? King, have controlled substances recently been made legal in Canada? We've done quite well with an all-volunteer force, for over 30 years now. Unless there's a higher percentage of Canadians serving in your military than there are Americans serving in ours, that seems a rather foolish statement. And did you ever serve yourself, King?

O.K. O.K. I'm running up the flag (for the sake of the board and my time). The United States of America saved us all. Not the Russians, who saw accurately the Battle of Britain and the Western Front as piddly compared to the monumental aerial and land battles in the East, not the British Commonwealth with splendid forces in every theatre, nor the surpassing valour of the Poles. I hereby surrender to Larry and America while its President, Vice President and Secretary of State proclaim that the US needs friends because its hubris has made it a pariah throughout the world. Thank god your President is now "the most beloved and popular leader in the world."

King, since you left out the war against the Japanese, in which the Russians only participated very briefly in an attempt to pick a bit of flesh off a dying body, you ought to run up the flag. And the significantly weakened British Commonwealth, which had to give up on Greece in that nation's battle against the Communists in the late 40's-early 50's and cede their role to the Americans . . . they were going to stand up to the Russians, along with which other Western allies (also severely weakened by WWII) without the USA? For years following WWII, the strongest troop commitment to NATO, dwarfing all others (until the West German armed forces were fully manned, trained and equipped) was American.

But envy can be a powerful motivator to criticize--even an allied nation. And it's easy to envy when you're in the shadow of the world's only superpower. When significant military power projection is needed, there's only one number to call: 1-800-USA. Others may not approve of all situations in which this country chooses to project that power, but they certainly don't hesitate to call Uncle Sam when they need help. King, you and all Canadians should consider yourselves very lucky that you happen to have an allied "pariah" right next door, just in case you need our help. Domestic politics has never kept us from helping a friend (or friends) in need.

What I can't understand is why this political pi$$ing match hasn't been at least moved into the misfire forum. King is a good friend of mine and I respect him but this is getting ridiculous. Let's drop this guys, this is so far off topic it's stopped even being funny.

Destry

Ma Parker has spoken...

I just hope it's not a symptom of lead poisoning.