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Jun 14th, 2026
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Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 10,041 Likes: 646
Sidelock
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OP
Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 10,041 Likes: 646 |
Thanks all. Our local library branch will have a copy of Akehurst for me Monday. Roy: does the image look like this? I believe this is Dr Gaddy's example of One Iron Crolle (two 1/2 scrolls between the ribband weld lines) 
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Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 12,743
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 12,743 |
After a horse is Shod the hoof will continue to grow. After some growth it becomes necessary to pull the shoe, trim the hoof, & re-apply the shoe. Every reference I have ever seen re Stub Twist/Damascus indicated these "Pulled" stubs were used. Reference was made to the fact the iron had been compacted by the impact of the horse's hoof. Greener even insinuated (Which I would find exrtemely doubtful) that the stubs "Absorbed" carbon by virtue of this pounding within the hoof. All of this describes a nail which was "Worn" by the horse.
Miller/TN
I Didn't Say Everything I Said, Yogi Berra
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Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 15,465 Likes: 89
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 15,465 Likes: 89 |
I think I may be able to add a few points of interest, clarify one or two threads and raise one or two questions.
We'll be right here waiting.. 
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Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 15,465 Likes: 89
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 15,465 Likes: 89 |
dOc you should change your saying "AZ but dreaming of Kansas"
To "Shooting Fluid steel but dreaming of the roar of Damascus"
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Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 1,164 Likes: 12
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 1,164 Likes: 12 |
The illustration,s of Stub Damascus seen in both Akehurst,s and William Greener,s books do not show a uniform pattern as evident in your post. When you have the Akehurst book available, you will note that there is no uniform pattern in the illustrations of Stub Barrels.This is because the aglomeration of the nail stubs in the ball feeding the ribbon are in a random aray. Hence you see a mottled pattern on the finished barrel surface.
Roy Hebbes
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Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 10,041 Likes: 646
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 10,041 Likes: 646 |
Thanks again Roy. Me & Lord Walsingham hO jOe  The Field Oct. 20, 1888 “A Shoot On The Moor” by Baron Thomas de Grey Walsingham I learned...that Whitworth steel barrels are not desirable for a heavy day's shooting. The explosion in them makes quite a different sound from that given off by Damascus barrels: there is more ring about it, and I can imagine that this might prove a serious annoyance to anyone who minds the noise of shooting. Moreover, the Whitworth barrels became hot much more rapidly than the Damascus, and this is a serious drawback ...I am replacing them with Damascus as in all my other guns.
Last edited by revdocdrew; 02/06/09 01:30 PM.
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Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 1,164 Likes: 12
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 1,164 Likes: 12 |
I agree the the majority of nail stubs used for Forging stub barrels were of the used variety. I can say this because I have had the opportunity to examine a specimen similar to that illustrated in Akehurst book.
This a subject I have researched in the past. Here a couple of interesting findings:
1/ The gun makers of the period used only the best British made horse shoe nail stubs for barrel forging. This was because they were produced from Iron smelted from imported Sweedish ore. The imported ore was for all practical purposes pure iron. Thus by using selected nail stubs the risk of contamination from undesireable elements was minimised. William Greener describes the importance of sorting of nail stubs to eliminate those made from malleable iron. In addition he also desribes the cleaning of the stubs to eliminate contaminates prior to welding.
2/The gunmakers observed that pulled nails were a lot harder than when new. This was important to them because this was property they wanted to develope in their finished barrels. This increase in hardness we know today as, work hardening.The barrel makers learned to recreate the increase in hardness by cold hammering after the barrels were welded.
Roy Hebbes
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 3,660 Likes: 8
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 3,660 Likes: 8 |
Gentlemen, the more I read these "damascus threads" the more my desire for a shootable damascus hammer gun goes up!
Thank you for sharing.
JC
"...it is always advisable to perceive clearly our ignorance." Charles Darwin
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Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 10,041 Likes: 646
Sidelock
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OP
Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 10,041 Likes: 646 |
"Stub Damascus" is probably a historically dated term anyway. It was used by Henry Wilkinson in Engines Of War: or, Historical and Experimental Observations on Ancient And Modern Warlike Machines And Implements, Including the Manufacture of Guns, Gunpowder, and Swords with remarks on Bronze, Iron, Steel, &c. published in 1841. http://books.google.com/books?id=0XJeF_o...w3u60I#PPA70,M1but by no one else (other than both W. and W.W. Greener) writing after about 1850 (unless they were 'borrowing' directly from W.) http://docs.google.com/Doc?id=dfg2hmx7_69dxb227c6W.W. seemed to use the term for any British damascus barrel, using the terms One, Two, and Three Iron, and Best "Stub Damascus" as late as 1907 http://docs.google.com/Doc?id=dfg2hmx7_234chsrtv6sBUT no "Stub Damascus" barrel was listed as having been tested in the Birmingham Proof House Trial of 1891 W. Greener also mentioned the increasing difficulty in obtaining high quality 'stubs', and by the mid 1800s, the Best Gun makers (including Purdey) seemed to be using 2 and 3 Iron Damascus rather than Stub Twist.
Last edited by revdocdrew; 02/06/09 09:32 PM.
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Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 4,598
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 4,598 |
I agree the the majority of nail stubs used for Forging stub barrels were of the used variety. I can say this because I have had the opportunity to examine a specimen similar to that illustrated in Akehurst book.
This a subject I have researched in the past. Here a couple of interesting findings:
1/ The gun makers of the period used only the best British made horse shoe nail stubs for barrel forging. This was because they were produced from Iron smelted from imported Sweedish ore. The imported ore was for all practical purposes pure iron. Thus by using selected nail stubs the risk of contamination from undesireable elements was minimised. William Greener describes the importance of sorting of nail stubs to eliminate those made from malleable iron. In addition he also desribes the cleaning of the stubs to eliminate contaminates prior to welding.
2/The gunmakers observed that pulled nails were a lot harder than when new. This was important to them because this was property they wanted to develope in their finished barrels. This increase in hardness we know today as, work hardening.The barrel makers learned to recreate the increase in hardness by cold hammering after the barrels were welded. From some Birmingham price schedules, horse nails were one of the cheapest products that could be purchased from the mills. I have often speculated that the "pulled nail" may have been a combination of pulled and new nails to supplement demand. Pete
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