doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Could this be what Greener called 'Stub Damascus'?

We probably won't know until one of our British Brethren finds the 'English Damascus Rosetta Stone', but Paul Stevens sent me several interesting pics of a pattern which is clearly not 'English Two Stripe' which follows



Please see http://docs.google.com/Doc?id=dfg2hmx7_2584fpzkcfv for an explanation. It seems that what Greener called 'Stub Damascus' was One Iron Crolle made of Stub rods which were twisted (which Twist is not)??





Doesn't look like a Persian Carpet jOe

I've always been under the impression that "stub" referred to the fact that the steel was derived from used horseshoe nails and didn't have anything to do with a particular pattern. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
Jim

Greener's description starts here Jim
http://books.google.com/books?id=oIEY4qL6_z0C&pg=PA30-IA1&dq=wiswould%27s+iron#PPA14,M1

Drew:
I see that Greener refers to it as "Stub Twist Iron" for the reason I alluded to above i.e. It's from horseshoe nails. I also remember that the reason they felt this material was superior was that the stress the nails were under in their original use somehow "tempered" the metal. I had the pleasure of actually watching damascus steel for knife blades being forged at a Renaissance craft exhibit around a year ago. They started out with "billets" of scrap band saw blades alternated with layers of the barrel banding materials you generaly see used in shipping. This made a very pleasing looking damascus when finished up.
Jim

It is true the term derived from the use of pulled horse shoe nail stubs, often used with a mixture of chopped coach springs of approximately the same size pieces as the stubs for a steel content, the stubs being made of wrought Iron. As Drew mentions William Greener (Father of W W Greener) described both Stub Twist & Stub Damascus. The fact the bars for winding into the bbl thus consisted of smaller pieces having been welded first, thus produced a decided difference in the pattern than those bars consisting of longer strips. One thing of interest in W Greeners book, "The Gun 1834" was he took prepared rods of several varieties, prior to them being wound into a tube, & pulled them until they broke. By taking the size of the bar vs the lbs required to break it we can calculate the tensile strength of the bar. Stub Twist bars equalled 76,458 psi tensile.

The barrels pictured are not stub twist.As pointed in earlier posts, William Greeners book,"The Gun 1834", describes in detail the material and process for manufacturing Stub twist/damascus barrels.
Richard Akehurst,s book, "Game Guns and Rifles" page 35 pictures stub twist showing the lump of horse shoe nails stubs from which the ribbon is being formed prior to coiling. Page 26 of this book also shows the figure developed on stub iron barrels.

Thanks Roy. I'll try to get a copy of Akehurst.

Gunnery in 1858: Being a Treatise on Rifles, Cannon, and Sporting Arms
Greener has the images:
http://www.google.com/books?id=A4TPW796i...ges&cad=0_1

http://www.google.com/books?id=A4TPW796iD8C&pg=PA187&source=gbs_selected_pages&cad=0_1


Pete

I hear the Rosetta stone is some where in Persia.

The 'stubs' referred to were a by-product; the trimming of the thick end of the horseshoe nail, rather than being made from old nails removed from a horse's hoof after having been 'worn'.

I think you are pursuing a good project here and I'm following it with interest. When I have digested and examined your body of work (when it has settled a little), I think I may be able to add a few points of interest, clarify one or two threads and raise one or two questions.