doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Help ID Belgian SxS

I just received another old Belgian 12 GA. SxS Guild Gun. It's a pretty little thing. No nitro proofs, but BP proofs. Cannot seem to date it. It has a Double Headed Eagle and Crown Crest on both barrels and "Acier Cookerill" stamped beneath the crests. Nicle plated receiver and trigger guard. Found a "DD" marked on the underside of one barrel. Bores are beautiful and gun is in excellent condition. Could stand to be put on face. Any ideas of the history or maker?

Double headed eagles are either Bohemian(Austro-Hungarian) or Germanic as seen here, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double-headed_eagle . Your longarm crest looks more Austrian and possibly pre-1918. Are there any other marks besides the Belgian ones? Or could you post a pic of the flats?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Camera is not available right now, but here is all that is stamped on barrel undersides from l-r with breech at right--

180 K EL(in script) *S Candlestick "12 over C in Rhombus" Crown over oval with E over LG over * inside oval

If your hammergun was an export into Germany, then the "Crown" over "Oval" is more than likely going to put it post July 1893 and it notes re-enforced black or special proof test; post October 1898, otherwise.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Acier Cockerill simply means Cockerill steel. Cockerill was the major steel supplier in Belgium.

The 2 headed eagle is associated with Antoine Bertrand. Bertrand was a major force in the founding of the Liege school of gun making. He also had an association with Riga. He was active from the mid 1880's to about 1900. I don't know if there was any relationship with Joseph Bertrand.

I have seen that engraving before. I believe on a Neumann Brothers gun, but my memory may be off.

The 12 over C in a rhombus dates it between 1898 - 1924.

All of the above is right here:
http://damascus-barrels.com/bp.html

Pete

Excellent Peter. Any info why he used the 2 headed eagle of Roman influence?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Raimey,

Belgium is bi-lingual. They reflect a broad range of cultural influences. Pieper was from modern Germany. Why Bertrand choose that symbol, no idea. No enough biographical info on him. But the fact that he help found the school in Liege speaks volumes as to his political sympathies. The major makers fought against the formation of that school for nearly 20 years. It is still active today. Considered one of the best places in the world to learn gun engraving.

Pete

Appears from my research online that the crests are the Imperial Austria-Hungarin Standard, 1915 Version. Serial number appears to be "HT 11".

See this link for 1915 Version of the Austria-Hungarian Imperial Standard.

http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/ah-imper.html#1915

Looking further, this could be the late 19th century version as well. All the elements are there in the engraving and without colors, it's anyone's guess. I would speculate though that the shotgun probably predates WWI since Belgium was an Allied nation while Austria-Hungarian Empire was a Central Power with Imperial Germany and Turkey.

rooster steel is quite common on ordinary belgian pieces like this one. more prestigious steel like: poldi-anticorro, exelsior whitten or sir jos whitworths fcs is mostly found on better quality guns. the crest on the barrel looks out of place on that peasant gun. perhaps it belonged to grounds keeper at some central or eastern euro estate. the master must have been quite a screwge!
PS. i did see rooster steel on better quality blne with name 'populaire' engraved on the trigger plate. luvly lil' 16ga built on 20ga frame,......light as a feather. too bad previous owner had chambers punched out to 70mm.