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Here is an interesting back-and-forth:Does having a stock bent change the finish? in forum DoubleGun BBS @ gunshop.com at gunshop.com - The Double Gun BBS.
To visit this topic, use this URL:
http://gunshop.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=017572
Posted by Recoil Rob (Member # 80) on May 13, 2005 10:09 PM:
Those of you that have have stocks bent by Mike Orlen and others, what does the heat and oil used, to allow the wood to bend, do to the finish of the stock? Is there a noticeable change? Is refinshing or touching up required?
Rob
Posted by rabbit (Member # 1538) on May 13, 2005 10:37 PM:
Stock panels of Superposed (yes, thru bolt stocks will bend; has to be some lateral relief for the bolt)showed some markoff from cauls or vise jaws in which action and stock head was secured. Looked like a shallow, dull scuff from slight movement. Wasn't very deep; compounded out with Simichrome polish. If a heavy surface finish can stand up to the heat and linseed, I wouldn't think an oil finish would fare worse.
jack
[ May 13, 2005, 10:37 PM: Message edited by: rabbit ]
Posted by John Mann (Member # 24) on May 13, 2005 10:46 PM:
The good guys do not use hot oil but as a last resort.
Stocks are put in a jig and heat lamps are strategically placed . The pressure is then placed on the wood to eventually get to the desired state.
Oil should never be used unless the heat does not satisfy.
When the heat lamps are the only influence, it does not harm the finish.
This is the only method that has been used by my gunsmith, Steven Hutton ,and it has worked to perfection.
I have also seen a master stocker, that is now back in London, use Steven's jig and lamps to bend more than one Boss, H&H and a couple of Purdeys. This must mean something ,as these were very expensive stocks.
Hope this helps.
Best.
John
Posted by Marrakai (Member # 2084) on May 14, 2005 08:19 AM:
I have used hot oil on several stocks. Any effect on oil-finished pommie gunstocks is totally invisible.
Can't imagine why you would designate the hot-oil method to the 'last resort' bin, John. It works perfectly. I would be worried about over-heating using lamps in the home-workshop.
'Course, I've never done a laquered or varnished stock....
Posted by Geno (Member # 303) on May 14, 2005 09:33 AM:
How hot, too hot or medium hot oil? You can burn the wood and finish just like that.
I vote for lamps, method works just fine, moreover bending is pretty long process and it needs long time and easy controled heating.
Posted by muchatrucha (Member # 5170) on May 14, 2005 10:21 AM:
Do long top tangs and triggerguard tangs interfere with the bending process? I can see that the bottom tang can easily be bent upward. Or, does bending occur behind the tangs.
I have a W&C Scott c. 1915 that could use a bend.
What can you tell me about Steve Hutton or Michael Orlen in terms of a stock bender, ie, quality, timing, cost, etc.
Thanks
Posted by Richard Howard (Member # 4913) on May 14, 2005 11:38 AM:
The hot oil method comes under the heading "don't try this at home". I successfully bent a stock using hot oil after watching a how-to video. But the oil was too hot and it charred the stock black. I threw it away.
Posted by Mark Schoen (Member # 430) on May 14, 2005 12:59 PM:
I have tried both. I prefer the heat lamp method, although properly done I am sure the hot oil method works well too. Michael Orelen recommends using some oil painted on the surface to help transfer heat even with the heat lamp method. Two 250 watt heat lamps placed about 7" to 10" away seems to work well. Black walnut does not bend as well as English and quarter sawn wood bends better than slab sawn because of grain orientation. It is not too difficult a process but as you are working with fairly high heat it requires care and attention to saftey.
I have never used him myself but if I was to have this work done professionaly I would not hesitate to use Michael Orlen, based on his reputation.
Best Regards
Mark Schoen
Posted by danross70 (Member # 458) on May 14, 2005 02:09 PM:
In my limited experience, it is the surface temperature on the stock that can cause some bubbling of the finish, so whatever method is used, there must be care to heat the wood slowly. If you rush, you run the risk of bubbling or charring of the finish. The heat can always be increased, but a burn is forever!
Posted by rabbit (Member # 1538) on May 14, 2005 03:30 PM:
There's an article on stock bending by Stephen Dodd Hughes in Shooting Sportsman Magazine, Jul/Aug 2003. Interviews with Jack Rowe, Steve Downes, and Glenn Baker (who bent my Super) and photo of Baker's bending bed which is basically a huge Record machine vise and a steel frame with handscrews which apply vertical and lateral pressure on stock. Had a bit of trouble finding the mag because of my unique filing system. Refiled it under SCUBA. That should solve the problem!
jack
Posted by Riprap (Member # 1252) on May 14, 2005 07:38 PM:
I have had at least 10 stocks bent, with only one showing a slight change (some darkness in the wrist area). This was on a new Parker Reproduction pistol grip 28 gauge. The work was not done by Mike Orlin.
Take Care,
Riprap
Posted by Marrakai (Member # 2084) on May 16, 2005 11:51 PM:
muchatrucha:
The top-tang and guard-tang are removed prior to bending. When the job is completed, they are gently 'massaged' into the correct curve for a snug replacement fit. In practice, most are a tiny bit springy anyway and will re-fit without deliberate bending.
Geez, you guys must really get that oil SMOKIN' to char the stock!!!
Posted by Mark Schoen (Member # 430) on May 17, 2005 12:48 AM:
Marrakai
How hot do you get your oil when you bend stocks? Do you use any kind of thermometer or do you go by appearance?
I prefer the heat lamp method because it works for most stocks and you do not have a pot of boiling oil to worry about spilling or catching fire. However, with some stocks that do not want to bend easily hot oil or maybe a combination of methods might be worth trying.
Best Regards
Mark Schoen
Posted by JM (Member # 4169) on May 17, 2005 04:22 AM:
A few years ago, my mother-in-law gave me a Beretta S687 for Christmas. I'm left handed, and the stock is cast off for a right handed shooter. I called Beretta USA in Accokeek, MD, and they recommended a certain individual in Texas to do a stock bend for me. I sent it to him, and the gun came back with a light band that went completely around the stock. I don't know what method he used. Now I've got a brand new gun with a messed up stock. I sent the gun to Rich Cole and had the gun restocked.
I learned three lessons from this experience.
1) I'll never trust Beretta USA again. I found out from a Beretta dealer afterwards that Beretta's policy was that they should have replaced the stock as long as the gun was unfired, which it was.
2) I'll never send any gun of mine to that "individual" in Texas ever again!
3) I'll never attempt to have a stock bent again.
No doubt that there are some craftsmen out there who can do it right, but once bitten, twice shy.
[ May 17, 2005, 04:29 AM: Message edited by: JM ]
Posted by pgc1877 (Member # 3312) on May 17, 2005 07:10 AM:
I have had at least 20 stocks bent by Mike Orlen. None have had any damage to the finish. Mike just did a fine job lowering the stock on an SO3 EL Beretta for me.I highly recommend him. Actually ,the "last resort" for bending in London is actually setting the wrist of the stock on fire. John Wilkes described this process to me one time with the funny aside that at the moment the recalcitrant stock was set ablaze its owner entered the little Beak St shop. Needless to say they didn't tell him the gun on fire was his until the flames were out. Paul Hodgins used this "last resort' process on one of my guns, a rather expensive Westley Richards pigeon gun with a thick stubborn full pistol grip. It bent and after a cleanup the post conflagration darkened areas blended in quite well into the marbling of the english walnut stock.Luckily he was in Utah and I was in Pa. when the bend occurred...
[ May 17, 2005, 07:12 AM: Message edited by: pgc1877 ]
Posted by SKB (Member # 20) on May 17, 2005 08:37 AM:
I believe Jack Rowe is also known for the flammimg stock method. I know several people who have taken classes from Jack and everyone of them talks about how he lights them on fire. Must be impressive. I just finnished my bending jig and am going to attempt my first bend using Mike Orlean's method.
Hopefully all goes well.
Steve
Posted by Tom Martin (Member # 55) on May 17, 2005 11:37 AM:
I built a stock bender from pictures sent by Mike Orlen, and e-mail directions from the process that he was using at the time (about 3 years ago). Ihave bent a number of stocks successfully since then with no problems. I wrap the area to be heated with a soft cotton cloth and soak the cloth with cooking oil before heating. The cloth protects the finish from the heat lamps and the oil transfers the heat through the cloth. Two other people that I know have had trouble with the process removing blue from trigger guards, and I expect that this had something to do with the type of oil used. I heat the stock until the oil begins to smoke and start the bend. After bending, I leave the stock in the bender until it has cooled, then wipe off the oil. So far I have had no problems at all.
JC
"...it is always advisable to perceive clearly our ignorance."ť Charles Darwin
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Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,826 Likes: 12
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,826 Likes: 12 |
tudurgs, don't worry, it'll still fit. Paul
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