doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com O/U Guys....Got a Question

So I finally took the big step and bought my first ever O/U. I think I've owned somewhere near a metric ton of SxS's over the years, so it's really a new adventure for me. It's a pretty little F.A.I.R. Rizzini Model 400 in 28 gage, 28" barrels with screw-ins, straight hand with double triggers....originally imported by NEA. It presently has a too long 15 1/4" LOP to the front trigger and a little cast for a right hand shooter.

I'm a left handed shooter and I'll take care of that issue later. In the interest of just getting it shootable ASAP I thought I'd cut it to a manageable LOP now and add my favorite, a Silvers pad. The question is....Would the LOP on this new gun be the same 14 3/4" as I am used to on my SxS's or is there something different about O/U's in that regard? When I get ready for the bend, will there be any change in the cast specific to O/U's?

Thanks for the help.

I think I would bend before cutting. Then you will discover if 14 3/4 = 14 2/4.
Good luck.

Bob, you're fortunate to have found one of those with a straight stock and DT. Those were options on the FAIRs (as was solid vs vent rib), but most of them were SPG/SST/VR. I saw one a couple years back at Cabela's in Owatonna, like yours plus a solid rib. I was on my way up north, grouse hunting, figured I'd take a harder look on the way home. Should've pulled out the plastic then and there. It was gone a week later.

For me, o/u and sxs LOPs are the same. Granted, I have some flex in the LOP no matter the barrel arrangement. Also, more o/u's I encounter have single triggers than sxs's, but that's another story.

I had a professional fitting some years back, I used Keith Lupton.

The fitting included my measurements for both SxS & O/U,( he had two different try guns) they varied slightly and I believe LOP was different. I don't have my sheet readily available but I'll try to dig it out and report back.

Thanks for the reminder Rob. I had a fitting several years ago with Glenn Baker at Woodcock Hill but I think we just did SxS's. I'll give him a call and see what I can find out.

I have shot about 50 rounds thru it as is and I'm amazed at how unpleasant the recoiled of an ill fitting gun can be.

Larry, mine has a vented rib.....just wish it were solid. I picked it up a while back from a guy over on UJ.

given equal gun weight, fit, and load the o/u will have better recoil characteristcs when lower barrel is fired first. it just seems to kick less and that is one reason i like them better. not sure how much you can bend avg. o/u wood as most have bolt through the stock.

It doesn't matter. It would have been gone long ago anyway.

sv

Bob,
If your normal L.O.P. on a SxS is 14 3/4", you may find your comfort level with an O/U is the same or even a tad longer at 14 7/8" or even 15". Also, previous suggestion to bend the stock before making big cuts is a good one as L.O.P. will affect cast at face too. If that stock has cast-off PLUS twist out at toe, then you've got another issue to deal with, but assuming its pretty neutral you may never notice.

LOP is an area like pitch and how chokes work that is a magnet for bad opinions and mis-information. Some time ago I stuck one of those extendo kinda things on a trap gun to decide absolutely what the best LOP was for me. I went from about 13.5" where I was in danger of bashing my nose with my thumb, to just under 16 where it was becoming really strange trying to mount the gun. The Difference?? Nothing. Of course no other aspect of the gun fit changed, which was just fine, just the LOP.
Now, pragmatically, the best fit is long enough that you don't bash your nose. Why? Obviously that will accomdate the easiest gun mount and the greatest range of clothing. And more importantly it will bring the center of mass close to the rotational axis of your body and you will be able to turn faster. (don't bother, Rocketman, you know I think your MOI is crap for years now ;)). But short stocks look kinda funny tho, don't they? So cut it or leave it alone or whatever. It really doesn't make any difference in anything but how the gun mount feels. Of course that presumes that the gun fit is otherwise correct and that begs a lot since most shooters have NO clue how that works either.


The really important point here is to find something to obsess about that matters.

JMO of course, but that's just the way it is

WtS

WtS, good to see you again (yes, I can see you through your monitor)!! For those who don't know, I stole WtS's gun's MOI when he foolishly allowed me to spin it and I have held power over him every since. WwwoooOOOooooo! Did you give up trying to bat things out of the air with a "gittar" and return to your first love, shooting --- well, make it your second love after the lovely ---- "whatzername," i seem to have forgotten BTW, I still have the data on your gun, should you ever change your mind.

LOP for target guns is far more flexible than for field guns. Shooting premounted, it's relatively easy to adjust to a significant difference in LOP. Mounting in the field, in response to a surprise flush or even over a point . . . too short isn't so bad unless you're bashing your nose, but too long will usually result in catching the gun somewhere under your arm or on your clothes, and it's bye bye birdy.

Bob, I think I recall reading somewhere--maybe Batha--that dimensions for the smallbores should be different than for 12's. Especially so, I think he said, for 28's and 410's. I'm fuzzy on it, but I think it was less drop for the smaller gauges. Don't recall whether there was an LOP difference. SxS vs OU, as long as both have the same number of triggers, I wouldn't guess there would be a lot of difference.

That from a guy who sold me a 16ga Elsie that fired when you closed it.

Still got it?

sv

Now, see? This is exactly the crap that I was refering to. Gauge has as much to do with drop as my shoe size. The only thing provided by that type of information is amusement. And then only if the provider is just mean. But that is the very stuff of gunning - make-believe science and hallowed BS lubricated with linseed oil.

Make sure you never consult an actual published authority that knows and tells the truth like maybe Yardley. Or read a few papers over at shotgunreport that reflect the real physical universe. Be a blow to ya, I promise.

JMO of course but that's the way it is anyway

WtS

Really? What does Yardley say Wonk?

Same old Wonk. LOP doesn't make a bit of difference . . . nope, doesn't make much difference when you're shooting nothing but targets, pre-mounted. No more than gun weight matters, when you're only toting the gun from the trunk of the Mercedes to the 16 yard line.

If one accepts the late Gough Thomas as a "published authority" on shotguns, here's what he says: "Since our leading coaches and gun-fitters cannot always agree on what constitutes the correct stock for a given man, I beg to be acquitted of any intention of laying down the law on the subject." It would seem that Mr. Batha, who is a coach, has as much right to submit his opinion on the subject as anyone else--given the lack of agreement to which Mr. Thomas refers.

Why add a Silver's Pad on a 28 ga? Gun would be a lot cleaner, to my eye, with a HRBP

Just seems right with the straight hand and double triggers.

I was wondering the same thing. He also mentions cutting the stock for correct LOP. Seems kind of silly to cut a 28ga and then add length back with a pad, unless there are some physical issues like heart problems or a detached retina. I have a friend who is putting a softer pad on an already padded Merkel 28ga, but he's taking that gun to Argentina for high-volume doves.

Same old L.Brown. Never bother to read an entire post if that will interfere with a reply that has no bearing to the topic. You might want to obsess about something that you actually understand. And I am absolutely certain that Gough Thomas would be the FINAL authority in gun fit since his international shooting fame has no equal. I know that my meager experience is of no consequence but the "authorities" (i.e. successful shooters) that I have spoken with seem to agree on the drop/cast/pitch/lop thing pretty consistently.
And I don't mind saying it again - gauge has as much to do with drop as my shoe size. Just like cowboy boots will make your gun shoot higher. Well, maybe at the urinal.

And I would end with JMO again too, but obviously there are facts that need no substantiation by my opinion or experience; the drop/cast/pitch/lop interactions being the most obvious here.

over and out

WtS

PS - Yardley does the writing/shooting thing for a living. Buy his books. He speaks the truth. And go to shotgunreport.com for a DIY gunfitting tutorial that works. AND just BTW for L.Brown, the shotgunreport guys are killer international and sporting shooters. But WTF do they know anyway??

Hmmm . . . I believe Mr. Batha also does the writing/shooting thing for a living.

One does have to be careful and always chew one's Redman in the offside cheek so as not to change the cast.

As for the LOP thing, Wonk . . . assuming that I hunt (that's shooting live, wild birds) with a shotgun just a bit more than you--and I believe that's a very safe assumption--I'll certainly put my credentials up against yours when it comes to LOP issues for a FIELD gun. And I can quote you at least half a dozen other serious HUNTERS who write who will also tell you that incorrect LOP--especially if it's in the too long direction--will result in all kinds of gun mount issues when hunting. Obviously, those aren't the same issues one faces when one already has the gun mounted before yelling "pull".

I was wondering the same thing. I know you said you like them, but, but, but. Is there any other options???

tim

Kids, see what happens when you take one too many pulls off the lit Churchill clamped in your teeth when you are next to the acetone tank?
Let this be a lesson to you pukes.....
Best,
Ted

Interesting comment on the Redman "cud" Mr. Brown. I'm not a clays shooter at all, but do own a 1948 era M12 Pigeon Grade Trap-factory dims for that era. The former owner was a AA class 16 yard shooter-but was also a 2 pack of Camels/day smoker-. In an effort to quit that deadly habit, he went to chewing Red Man. His trap scores went "into the dumper" until he learned to shift his cud to the left side cheek. The "wad" of Red Man raised his right cheek off the comb of that M12-and he was shooting over his birds- mainly the straight away flying targets.

I'm a retired power plant/pipeline welder- most of my buddies "on the job" smoked, I didn't. Old Tex saved the cigar stubs from his "R.G. Dungs" and re-lit the stubs, so he could smoke while his hood was down and he was burning a stick of LH-70 vertical up- There was as much smoke coming out of the back of his Huntsman hood as from the arc- Tex told a "rookie" once, upon his first helping of Mail Pouch- "Take a big load there sonny, don't skimp- that will make the pukin' worth your while"..

Well, I'm gonna give up on trying to lure you into actually reading my initial post and copping to the fact that I voted for short LOP's. As for wild birds - I think I'm safe in putting flyers up against them most any time.
And who GAF if the gun is mounted or not. I know lots of guys that mount the gun before they pull the trigger. But if you say a short stock makes low gun shooting easier you are certainly free to do it that way.

WtS

Wonk, I think maybe you need more help with your English than you do your gun mount, if you think the above somehow shows a preference for short stocks over long ones. 17" is long enough that I won't bash my nose, but I'd never be able to shoot a 17" stock starting low gun. If you'd said "just long enough that you don't bash your nose", that will work pretty well shooting low gun. "But short stocks look funny." I think you and John Kerry have a lot in common: You both have a tendency of being for something before you're against it.

And to straighten out your most recent muddying of my opinion on stock length . . I certainly believe that a stock that's too long can be a definite hindrance to shooting low gun. And with the possible exception of Doc Holliday at the OK Corral, most folks I know don't pull the trigger until the gun's mounted. The problem is getting it mounted with the least amount of difficulty and having it end up so it shoots where you look. If you're shooting premounted, you have more of an opportunity to scrunch yourself around so that a too long LOP can be made to work.

Talked to Glenn Baker who did my fitting a few years back. He feels that, since it is a straight grip with double triggers, LOP should be made same as for a similar SxS. He felt that a single trigger would necessitate going about 1/2" shorter on LOP.

He also gave me another idea on the finishing of the butt. Like him , I hated the prominent Phillip's head screws that fasten the nice matching wood butt plate onto the stock. Liked the wood but the screws have to go. He recommended new flat headed, engraved and blued screws. Think I'll go with that.

Actually, I thot that this was pretty clear - "Now, pragmatically, the best fit is long enough that you don't bash your nose. Why? Obviously that will accomdate the easiest gun mount and the greatest range of clothing. And more importantly it will bring the center of mass close to the rotational axis of your body and you will be able to turn faster."

But then that must depend on reading skills that all may not have.

WtS

We wear shoes much more than we shoot, thus, for notions about comfortable fit let's look at how we find our footwear.

The deluxe option consists of having the foot fitted and the shoe built to spec. I've tried it and while much effort is put into building the stature of the expert salesman, I am not sure the confidence necessarily follows with wearing the shoe. Believing a salesman is a poor placebo for true fit. Simply put, custom made stuff is not necessarily always best sized either because of bad luck or simply a bad fit. Now what to do with the custom numbers? And what about style selection?

Off the shelf shoes come easily. Find roughly the proper fit and hope for luck in falling into the perfect size. Matches made in heaven such as these happen often enough if you only search. Variety is endless and buying shoes is fun.

How many shoes do we have? Which one style do we secretly love? Which one always seems to fit the most comfortably?

I know for myself that if presented with a shoe I do not like even if it is the most scientifically-ergonomically-optimally-physically designed fit, I will scream like a kid that the pair actually hurt my feet. And they will. Truly.

The point I am trying to make is that a perfect fit comes in many mysterious ways - and in dimensions even a top expert wouldn't know to measure. Try your luck and if you have accumulated a collection of shoes over the years you'll know exactly what I mean when we speak of our favorite boots and thus the most comfortable pair. It's much more than an expert craft, it is much more than just plain old luck, it is also the memory of shared adventures and also the idolization of others who wear the same gear, meanwhile, it is our inner most intuition that we should all learn to follow for the happiness of our soul.

The best psychological fit trumps every other number. For guns it is the same. You love them with the eyes and with the mind and you love the fit. To me, within reason of course, dancing around crafted numbers is the same whining tantrum we all used to put on for our mother when it was time for her to buy shoes for us as kids. Don't you all remember? the Sunday shoes -she- liked would hurt our feet... and the sizes were all wrong - no matter what. Tears were our added attempt at proving it. Meanwhile, the cowboy boots we really wanted were the perfect fit... oh yeah... and it did not matter that the store did not have them in our size either... and I suspect my mother was secretly winking at the shoe lady.

We cloak our love for such items in the mystery of secret numerology, that way, we have an emotional escape for when we are stabbed in the heart if things don't come our way or when faced with scorn and mockery. But truly, the numbers don't matter much, plainly, tradition makes for an authentic fit. Little kids become men and part of growing up is learning to be comfortable in the love of guns.



(I buy my own boots nowadays)

That may be what you think, but that does not read as a ringing endorsement of a JUST long enough LOP--especially considering all the waffling done in the rest of the paragraph from which the above was extracted. Doublespeak worthy of a Washington pol at his best.

Actually, the question was just; Is LOP the same for O/U as SxS? Once you establish a good LOP for you, all this other discussion is just useless fluff and a waste of time.

Mostly pedantic shit.