doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Braised ribs vs soft soldered ribs

Add "THEY'RE" to your list.

Mike;
I think this sums it up very well. I certainly hope you understand, I meant nothing in a personal way. I just felt there were probably a lot of folks reading this thread, who may never post, who looked at Silver solder the same way as I do & wanted to make the distinction between the two types of Soft versus Hard soldering. I will state I have never heard the term "Hard Solder" used in a shop I worked in, always silver solder.

Henri Pieper developed an oven in the 1890's to braze barrels. One more step to speed up the production line. Loose barrels were proofed then brazed. After this they were then reproofed.

Pete

I had a Uggie (brazed) a while back. It had been poorly taken care of by the previous owner and the blue on the barrels was pretty ugly, what was left of it. I had a local smith hot blue the barrels. Came out ok. I wouldn't do it again, as I'm with Miller, I don't like the look much. But it was expedient for the little 410 cheapo.

Machinist for nearly all of my life, first on the lathe at age four, first time at the torch age eight.
Currently picking through year 40 (yes, still a spike but the velvet's off...).
There's no counting the pounds of silver solder and brazing alloy I've committed via torch, tig, and hearth.

From the Machinery's Handbook for Machine Shop and Drafting-Room
page 1210 on brazing and silver soldering.


It's a good read if you want to hear it from the industry's voice.



Cheers
Tinker

Well I would say that is conclusive proof that Miller is right and I am wrong. Silver solder by definition means a hard solder that is used in brazing.

Thanks for settling it Tinker.

Best,

Mike

AmarilloMike,

I wouldn't give up so quickly! --LOL.

I did quite a bit of research on this topic for another forum and learned that there is a lot of misinformation in the shotgun world on this topic. I called shops all around the country and asked those individuals that sell guns, make guns, and repair guns about the differences between soft and hard soldering, low temperature and high temperature, the kinds of solders used, and as one might expect I received all kinds of answers from the so-called experts --even when just concentrating on "one" manufacturer.

What I surmised is that because barrels brazed at higher temperatures (i.e. "silver soldered") are "considered" stronger (and this may be debatable), many companies that soft solder barrels at lower temperatures use solders with a small percentage of silver in them and then advertise their barrels as "silver soldered". I heard this story time and time again. Their customers in turn believe that the guns they are buying are "stronger" because they are "silver soldered", confusing the process with higher temperature brazing.

Ironically, in regards to craftsmanship and quality of work, barrels soldered at lower temperatures allow for ribs and barrels to be laid and adjusted more precisely. The process is more labor intensive and usually results in an ascetically more appealing product. Most high end guns to this day still use this process.

On the other hand, barrels brazed at higher temperatures (by true definition "silver soldered") are assembled with wire and wedges, and then heated in ovens. This process is less labor intensive and does not allow the barrel makers to make adjustments during the brazing process, but in theory this process makes for a stronger barrel (again, perhaps debatable) in addition to lowering the cost of production.

You bet, also, "there's" got to be a better way of explaining "their" use of these terms so often misused in our world that is out "there", although, "they're" misused a lot, it does bring this discussion to "their" attention!

me thinks

binko

Just my recollection of the Brownells catalog, but the addition of small amounts of silver in solders they sell seems to go hand in hand with increased tensile strength.

David I saw your discussion on the other BBS. And I certainly agree with you on the difference between the brazing and the soldering process. And I agree that some barrels are soldered using a soft solder with silver content. What the maker chooses to call that process is apparently not definitive in some cases.

Chuck in the discussion over on the 16ga.com that David references someone had called Perazzi. The discussion was mostly about soft solders getting hot and coming loose. Anyway as I recall Perazzi had one model that that had been silver soldered. At the time I took it to mean soft soldered with silver/tin/lead solder to provide a higher melting point and more strength than lead/tin solder. Now I am not so sure that is what was meant - it may have meant brazed with silver solder.


Best,

Mike