doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Who is doing quality color case hardening?

Boy, this has been some great information, much more than I expected! Thanks to all of you.
Chris

Ken,

This is very true about fluorescent lights. For alternative photographic prints, eg Platinum, Cyanotype, etc a light box is constructed of fluorescent tubes because of the potential for high UV output. Even the new compact fluorescents put out some amount of UV. It is easier to gain control than using the sun.

The only alternative is to choose tubes with very low UV output and use UV resistant glass in the cabinets.

Pete

MH - A+ from me. However, I don't like it when theory and practice don't jive; don't like it at all. I'm not disparaging your practice, not suggesting you change it. I'm just going to keep looking for some harmonization with theory. I'd appreciate any additional thoughts you , or anyone else, has on the subject of annealing an action prior to recasing it.

I fully understand the need and practice of blocking. That really makes sense.

As for light induced fading of CC, I spoke at length on this subject with Dr. O. G. He and I agree that there is no theory as to why CC would be photosensitive. I wonder why there is data on both sides of this argument?? We must be missing some factor. Is it possible that differing surface protectants are in use and they are differing in photoreactivity? Has anyone ever looked at a CC surface under high magnification before and after a UV exposure test? Comments welcome.

Thanks for the discussion!!

Rocketman
I’m not sure I understand the discrepancy between theory and practice.
Annealing is not a bad thing; most steels are annealed post machining to reduce internal stress. Many metals will work harden during the manufacturing process. W-1 in my mind is particularly bad, it will self harden while machining. You need to get rid of these internal stresses and uneven hardening.

Annealing does a beautiful job of that.

I find I get better welds once case hardened steels are annealed, less porosity. I will always anneal a part after welding, gets rid of those hard spots caused by welding.

I’m sure Mr. Ken Hurst will back me up on this, engravers hate working on welded areas that haven’t been annealed, one of those hard spots can easily break a graver tip, hitting a hard spot is never a pleasant surprise for an engraver.

Annealing can salvage a frame that has been overheated in a fire, as long as the steel has not been burnt can generally be annealed and saved.

In the case of the 1886 that I noted earlier, the depth of case was too deep, fairly evident when the butt plate snapped when the gunsmith installed it.

There was no way I was going to straighten that frame while hardened, chances of me cracking it were too high. Annealing softened the frame, made it more flexible/malleable and easier to work without the fear of breakage.

So if you don’t mind, would you please expound on the discrepancies between theory and practice, esp. mine.

Thanks
Mike

PA-2

You stated that you try to stay from the orange colors. How do you accomplish that?

LD1:

After 40 years of case coloring and lots of trial and error, there are a few things that are proprietary.....that is one of them.

Most of the cc guys have their own formula's and compositions, as do I.....and they will not relinquish same.....many processes/formula's are available on the net if you are interested in starting up your own cc set up. Many scientific papers are also available if you are slanted towards knowledge only..?

Best Regards,

PA24

Thanks for your reply. I fully understand your wanting to protect all of your work. I tried color case hardening one time at the research center about 30 years ago. The colors came out great, but I was never able to continue. They had some dumb rule about bringing any guns or parts on the premesis. Even when I helped Don Menk at Color case Company about 20 years ago he was somewhat secretive. I had not heard that Don is ill. He is a first class gentleman. One other question. I have seen some 98 Mauser actions color hardened at some of the gun shows. I was told by a gunsmith that they should in no way be color hardened due to the fact that one part of the action is kept at a different hardness than the other. Is that true?

Jim StLedger does case coloured 98s and they look great and he said it is all in knowing how to do it. If you do it wrong the action will fail! I have a few pictures that I can not find of his shop on Price St. form many years ago.
Cheers,
Laurie

LD1:

I have never cased a '98 Mauser action......I rebuilt a bring-back as a young boy, but hot blued the receiver....the action steel was very, very hard, and turned a beautiful deep wine red...I remember polishing that action, the metal was so hard that it came out like "glass" with jeweler's rouge on the wheel, without "any" wheel marks.....other smiths have told me that the good Mauser's are so hard that they will commonly break diamond drill bits when drilling and tapping for scope mounts...... Since they were not originally "color" cased and are already extremely hard, I see no need to re-case an already fine hard receiver that had no color in the first place..?? ...I would guess the Germans hot oil cased those receivers, but I don't know, a Mauser collector would know ?? ........They 'are' the action that all others are judged by......and the most copied of course...

Best Regards,

"So if you don’t mind, would you please expound on the discrepancies between theory and practice, esp. mine."

No issue on my side with your practice!! My issue is scientific curiosity. I don't doubt in any way that annealing is a good thing. What I don't understand is why a part would not anneal as it passes through critical temperature in the rehardening heat. I don't question that your practice produces fine results and that any part needing work would need annealing prior to that work and then rehardening. Maybe the point I'm missing is that all parts require something done before rehardening. Like, say, do you polish a reciever before or after annealing?

Lets take another example. Say we machine a part in W-2 such that it has significant internal stress. Then, we heat to through harden. Did the part lose the machining stresses as it was heated above critical?