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Jul 28th, 2025
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Joined: Feb 2002
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 14,447 Likes: 278 |
Raimey, apologies for not following the thread closer, but the late markings on some of the pictures of the Wise gun may be of the Osborne barrels which, we assume, were made later than the first set. I don't remember whether the Osborne barrels were choked or not. On the day of the photo shoot, I measured all bores and chokes, but I don't know whether those measurements got as far as the DGJ article. I will reread the article in the next few days, but can't do it right now. Bill Murphy
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Joined: Aug 2007
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 12,077 Likes: 378 |
Thanks Mr. Murphy for taking an interest/note. I've been posting out loud and now I'll try to sum it up. I don't know if this is a statement or question. On Matska # 273 the dark "12" is a plug gauge stamp while the light "12" adjacent to the Lion rampant over gP is a vulgar fraction stamp. And the same applies to #123 but there isn't a plug gauge stamp, which were integer values and if the tubes were really in the rough the proofhouse would round down the bore number(say it measured 13 1/2 bore and really in the rough, then it would be marked "13") to show intent. The plug gauge numbers are of course from the plug gauge that would pass the whole length; whereas, the vulgar fraction values, 12, 12/1, etc., are diameters measured at 9" from the breech end. So you have a course/loose measure vs. a finite value with an interim period from 1875-1887 where if choked, the measurement ahead of the chamber as well as the muzzle end was taken/stamped. And I think if it wasn't choked, the most narrow point within the bore was the gauge. With the dates of 1883-1907 given for Matska, the earliest tubes would have been in the 1875-1887 period.
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
Last edited by ellenbr; 12/31/08 12:02 AM.
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Joined: Jan 2002
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 3,774 Likes: 1 |
Gun #177 with two barrel set and gun #321 I checked personally got no visible chokes, but difference between diameters in 22 cm from breech and at muzzle were from 0.1 till 0.25 mm.
At the same time all 3 barrels I checked show pattern much more tight, than I expected, by most tight pattern it looked like barrels had modified choke, but only with particular shot numbers.
But long 34" geese-swan barrels show allmost full choke pattern, when shooting 3/0!
There is something I can't explain, but have read the same about old gun makers such as Mortimer, his cylinders shot as barrels with 1/2 chokes.
Last edited by Geno; 12/30/08 04:22 PM.
Geno.
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 865 |
Hi Guys, Thanks for the opinions about the LB barrels, I love to learn more about the makers of my guns. My gun is from Paris France it is a Roblin maker to the emperor of Austria, I have never learned anything about the maker. It is also the only pair of fluid steel LB barrels that I have seen.    Thanks, Jeff Pete great info
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 3,774 Likes: 1
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 3,774 Likes: 1 |
Nice gun, Jeff, but sure it's for another post. Start new one.
Geno.
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 865
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 865 |
Hi Genady
Did not mean to hijack the post. Got carried away with the LB barrels. Happy New Year,
Jeff G.
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Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 40
Junior Member
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OP
Junior Member
Joined: Jan 2006
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Finally got the bore gauge and both barrels measure .715 at the muzzle which would be improved cylinder, right? Also, the chambers measure 2 3/4" instead of the 3" that I had originally posted.
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Joined: Aug 2007
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 12,077 Likes: 378 |
After re-reading Geno/Bill Wise's article, I see that there is a Gustav Bittner, Weipert, Bohemia, frame connection. In the article it notes frames were from Gustav Bittner's Austrian factory, a group effort that made components for the Mannlicher for the Austro-Hungarian armed forces. So easily, there could have been a Russian-Bohemina-German connection. And the "E(backwards)P" stamp must have been Bernard's due to the fact that Paris the proof facility wasn't online in the 1880s. And it is the name "Kilby" in gothic that is adjacent to the "Trade Mark" stamp(Thanks Geno for the effort).
rse With an amended hypothesis I now submit that Jan(John) Nowotny(Newman) of Prague, who founded his company in 1865 in his mid 20s and lived until 1893, when his son continued the business, was also in the triangle. On page 77 of a Nowotny catalogue which looks to be in Russian is the "J. Nowotneho hammerlesska Model "Second to None" / Cis. 78" which has an English quote of "Kilby's extra resisting fine steel". Vejprty/Weipert/Vyprty(exit gate from Bohemia to Saxony) was very similar to Suhl and was a source for complete longarms, longarms in the white or components. Wenzel Morgenstern's catalogue lists locks, components and much more. Wenzel Morgenstern & Son's also may have made longarms for F. Faukner of Prague. Wenzel Morgenstern was also employed at the Weipert proofhouse in the early 1900s. Bittner, Fukert, Morgenstern, Schmidl and Schwab formed a comglomerate subject to Steyr/Osterreichische Waffenfabriks-Gesellschaft in Weipert in the last 1880s to fab the Mannlicher rifle for the Austro-Hungarian Army. This allowed the purchase of higher end machinery that in turn advanced their sporting longarm division. So Matsak could have sourced frames and tubes from Bittner/Morgenstern. Also Nowotny's might have sourced "in the white" longarms from Weipert but I'd like to see some Nowotny examples with Weipert marks to confirm that. Kind Regards, Raimey rse
Last edited by ellenbr; 01/11/09 04:30 PM.
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Joined: Apr 2005
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Apr 2005
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Raimey,
The language used in the Nowotny catalogue is Czech. "J. Nowotheho" means "J. Nowotny's".
Kind regards,
Jani
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 12,077 Likes: 378
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 12,077 Likes: 378 |
Thank you Jani as my Slavic, etc. is pretty poor. So what would "Trojhlavnove brokovnice" as a Cis. 57 d J. translate to?
Jan Nowotny may have been the "Kilby" link as circa 1910 Nowotny appears to have a strong relationship with the U.K. as he offers double rifles from H&H as well as W.C. Scott. The "Royal" looks to have a Webley screw-grip, extension and Southgate ejectors. Around WWI, the connection seems to have faded and a relationship with Belgium is forged.
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
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