doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com 410 pistol

I have a 410 ga pistol that the name Essex on it. The frame is nickel plated and has a large SX engraved on the sides. It has an exposed hammer. The serial #17325. It is marked 12mm choke.
I would like to have any info I can get on it i.e. age, origin, value.

Is the barrel rifled? How long is the barrel?

Pete

It is a smooth bore approximately 10" long. I don't have it here, but I can check the barrel length and let you know if you like.

Don't bother. You need a stamp from ATF to own that gun. If it does not have a stamp, you can not get one.

Pete

Thanks, Pete. I didn't know that. How do I get a stamp?

Dave

Dave,
you would need a time machine to go back to 1933 and get a stamp.
Find a very deep body of water,separate the barrel from the gun and deep six it.Not worth 10 years in prison

Why is it any more illegal than a Thompson Center Contender in .410?

It may well be a pre1898 gun and exempt from almost anything.

Just speculating here, but I don't know of a no-shotgun pistols allowed rule. Seems like the LeMatt revolver fall into this too and I believe there are others.

Brent

Brent, the Thompson and Lematte both have a trace of rifling in the bore and shoot 45 long colt which is legal.

binko

The Lematte is rifled? Not an original so far as I know. Why the issue with rifling? I know the BATF isn't logical, but they at least try to fake it. This one looses me. I think there is a .410 modern revolver out there. I don't believe it is rifled either but could be wrong (the name Thunderer comes to mind for some reason)

Apparently Thunderer is not right. Not what I was thinking of.

Taurus makes several .410/.45LC revolvers. They all have rifled barrels. See http://www.taurus-handguns.com/category/959-Taurus_Judge.aspx

Regards, Neil

You are probably thinking of the Taurus "Judge", but it also shoots a .41 long (I think), and is rifled. The rifleing is what makes the new crop of .410 pistols legal. The coolest I have seen is a sxs "road warrior" type pistol with 10 inch barrels...Geo

Upon reflection, it might be that it is the fact that the gun will shoot a bona-fide pistol cartridge rather than the rifleing that makes'em legal.

Well, I'm learning something new here I guess.

Still not sure why the need for rifling though.

The original Lemat was not rifled and Pietta makes a copy of it. I do not know if the repro is rifled.

FWIW...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LeMat_Revolver

These wonderful curiosities of a bygone era were made illegal without the tax stamp by the 1932 gun control act which outlawed sawed-off shotguns.

What Cools,Dave is describing is basically the same as ther coach gun here;
http://www.jcdevine.com/auction/catalog.aspx?Auction=2806&Sec=1&pg=5
If it can fire a "pistol" caliber then its a pistol,that sounds like a SBS as it is smooth bore.

He must have a From 4 or he is looking at 250K and 10 years with OJ.
"M8) What can happen to someone who has an NFA firearm which is not registered to him? [Back]

Violators may be fined not more than $250,000, and imprisoned not more than 10 years, or both. In addition, any vessel, vehicle or aircraft used to transport, conceal or possess an unregistered NFA firearm is subject to seizure and forfeiture, as is the weapon itself.

[49 U.S.C. 781-788, 26 U.S.C. 5861 and 5872] "


Destroy it up and make it go away,far away.

Those Auto and Burglar are neat !
Ithaca Auto burglar

All smooth-bored bbls are required by law to be a minimum of 18" in length. All the "Legal" guns firing a .410 (or other shot-cartridges) have rifling in them. An original LeMatt would not fall under this law as it is muzzle loader, not a cartridge gun. The old Stevens Tip-Up, H&R Handi-Gun, Marble Game-Getter & the Ithaca Auto-Burglar etc all fall under this category & were required to be registered by the National Firearms Act of the 30's. I was thinking 1934, but it may have been '33. A transfer tax is required every time one is sold. At some point in time, I think it was shortly after the '68 Gun law took affect a grace period was given & anyone who owned one of these without registration could register it for a fee of, as I recall $50.00.
If you set up & simply bore the rifling out of an ordinary revolver bbl, such as a .45 Colt You have converted it into an "Illegal" "Sawed Off Shotgun". Some years ago Harvey Donaldson tried to set up a buisness of doing this, thinking it would be legal as they did not fire ordinary Shotshells, but was ruled against & had to cease.
A Muzzle attachment can be applied to eliminate or minimize the effect of the rifling & the gun remain legal, or most of the bore can be smoothed, leaving only a "Rifled Choke" & it remain legal, but it Can't be "Smooth All the Way". So much for the BATF's "Logic"

hmmm, maybe straight rifling?

I bet there are a bunch of illegal Houda pistols out there as well as the original Lemats (but maybe the Lemats are exempt being percussion guns). Well, never wanted for one so I guess, I won't worry too much but good to know.

Brent

BTW: Hunter Arms made one also. Check out the top gun.

Additional restrictions may apply in many other jurisdictions. State and local laws may entirely prohibit civilian possession of short-barrelled shotguns. (These restrictions do not apply to military and police departments.) In addition, some firearm types that would normally be considered to fall into the Short Barrel Shotgun (SBS) category are not legally considered to be a SBS. A shotgun is legally defined as a shoulder mounted firearm that fires shot. Shotguns and shotgun receivers that have never had a buttstock of any type installed are not shotguns, as they cannot be shoulder mounted. Therefore, cutting one of these below the 18" barrel and/or 26" overall length cannot produce a SBS as the firearm was never a shotgun. The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, & Explosives recognizes these firearms as being a smooth bore handgun which is an Any Other Weapon (AOW). Unlike a SBS, an AOW only carries a $5.00 tax and can be moved interstate without Federal approval. However, to maintain its AOW status, one may generally not have a buttstock (making it a SBS) or a rifled slug barrel (making it a Destructive Device (DD); a handgun with a bore over 0.5"). Both SBS and DD weapons require a $200.00 transfer tax and prior Federal approval to transport interstate.

If this were mine I'd go ahead and get it registered as any other weapon(AOW) provided there are no local restrictions in your case. You have a smooth bore handgun and I see these along with brand new silencers being registered at my club from time to time.
Jim

Brent: I have seen several of these come to the auction house. My advice to the owners was to either keep it as a curiosity or family heirloom or contact BATF anonomously and enquire as to registration. I believe that it might now fall under the "RELIC & CURIO" classification.

Just My Thoughts.....George

"(M2) How can an individual legally acquire NFA firearms? [Back]

Basically, there are 2 ways that an individual (who is not prohibited by Federal, State, or local law from receiving or possessing firearms) may legally acquire NFA firearms:

By transfer after approval by ATF of a registered weapon from its lawful owner residing in the same State as the transferee.


By obtaining prior approval from ATF to make NFA firearms.

[27 CFR 479.62-66 and 479.84-86 ]



(M3) What is the tax on making an NFA firearm? [Back]

The tax is $200 for making any NFA firearm, including "any other weapon."



Unless you are a manufacturer you can NOT register a NFA (SBS or AOW) weapon.
Do what you want but I prefer my "family heirloms and curio's" not be evidence that would put me in prison !To advise someone otherwise is scary.

The rifling makes it a rifle. Not my logic, BATF. The H&R that Dave posted is a good example. People have been trying for years to get BATF to allow them, no dice. I gave up the thought of buying one, once I spoke to BATF and they explained the necessary paperwork.

If you are in possession of the receiver and the barrel, you are potentially in violation of the law, unless the gun was originally registered and you are in possession of the tax stamp.

As for the LeMat, I have no idea what their logic was / is.

Pete

Just a guess,but the rifling makes a round traceable in the mind onf the ATF.A 410 slug out of a SBS pistol leaves no unique markings.?

George, thanks. I saw an original Lemat appraised once on The Antique Road Show at about $20K iirc.

Brent

This might have been stated already, but the Lemat has a separate shotgun barrel underneath the rifled barrel and this barrel is not rifled. It's a moot point as was already stated because muzzleloaders are exempt from this silly law. I used to have a Pietta reproduction of the Lemat and shot it a few times, neat pistol, wish I still had it.

As for the gun in question, what would happen if somebody back in the 30's, prior to the law of course, rifled the last 1/2 inch or so? Even if it was just scratch rifling would this make the gun legal today?

"People have been trying for years to get ATF to allow them. I once talked to ATF and they explained the neccesary paperwork." Well which is it, Pete?? Do they not allow them or is there just some neccesary paperwork? What say we let the guy check it out and get some correct information. As I understand it, if it's pre 1898, it's not a gun under Federal law.

For the purposes of the NFA, an Antique Firearm is a weapon made in 1898 or before being a muzzle loader that has not been designed or redesigned to use conventional rim of centerfire ammunition,,or a repro thereof,,,,,and any cartridge firearm made in 1898 or before using a cartridge no longer manufactured in the US,, AND,, is no longer available in normal commercial trade channels.
>
Note the deffinition is slightly different from that used in the rest of the GCA, as are all the definitions used in NFA.
>
An application to BATFE on the proper form to manufacture a new AOW can be made. The fee (tax stamp) is $200. You may not start to manufacture the weapon till OK'd by BATFE. Transfer/sale of the AOW/weapon to anyone else cost the buyer a $5 transfer tax stamp fee. The transfer stamp tax fee for the rapid running stuff is still $200.
>
FWIW..The BATFE has on it's list of AOW's,,cartridge handgun
with a concealment 'wallet holster' from which the handgun may be fired w/o removing the gun from the 'wallet'. Neither by itself is an NFA item. Cane guns and pen guns are also on the list. An ever evolving list due to changing availability of ammo calibers and also the Technologys Branch findings and experiments.

You cannot register a currently unregistered NFA weapon. They are contraband. Should a non NFA weapon be reclassified to NFA status, a usual 60 or 90 day 'registration' period is given. after that, all non registered guns are contraband. The streetsweeper shotguns are one of the latest in that catagory I can think of.

The last full NFA amnesty was Dec. 1968 for that month only IIRC. One exception was the 30day amnesty extended to active duty US Service Personel out of the country during 12/68 but returning stateside during 1969. That fact was rarely if ever made public.
>
Go to this link,,
http://www.atf.gov/firearms/feib/guidebook/FEIB-GB.pdf
>
ATF Guidebook-Importation
sift through most of the info as it pertains to importation and is not related but near the middle there is a section that contains definitions, explantions, diagrams re: NFA weapons.
Also other interesting info regarding serial numbers, import markings, and proper way to 'demill' those sten guns you've been wanting to import from Zimbabwe.

and any cartridge firearm made in 1898 or before using a cartridge no longer manufactured in the US,, AND,, is no longer available in normal commercial trade channels.

We treat any normal shotgun from 1898 or before as an antique evern though they shoot readily available shotshells like 12g. Am I missing something here?

That is what you are missing. The short bbl shotgun comes under control of the National Firearms Act, which went in effect in the 1930's, '32 I believe was stated.

These come under the jurisdiction of the 1968 Gun Control Act

These ESSEX single shot 410 shotgun pistols were made sometime after 1908 to the best of my knowledge. My Grand Father would win them as a prize for selling a certain amount of candy in Tennessee. My Father was between 11 and 19 years old when these shotgun pistols were being given away as prizes and Dad was born in 1908. When I was 12 or 13 or 14 we would try to shoot skeet with one of them, I could hit about 1 out of 9 clays at the best with it. A good friend of my Dad's had a SXS 28 gauge shotgun pistol, it was very neat but 28 gauge ammo was hard to come by and I do not remember ever seeing it fired at all. Jent

Handigun!

My original thought was in error as this(Essex) is an existing weapon that was not registered under the provisions of the GCA of 1934.
However it is certainly possible to build and register a "smooth bore pistol" today. I just turned down the opportunity to buy a registered Remington 870 with a barrel under 18" that was built with a pistol grip rather than a conventional stock. The cost for the transfer,as stated above, was $5.00 plus the paperwork.
I'm sure I'm not the only one that can see the irony if not the stupidity here. You can't register a short barrel pistol because it wasn't originally registered but you can build a brand new registered one.
Jim

Hard to imagine what it is that makes that .410 pistol so fearsome to the gendarmes federales. Do you think they would rather take on a felon armed with a (legal) Glock 21 than one with that rat-popper? "Terminally cute," is about what that is.

If you think the NFA laws don't make sense just wait untill "the one " gets sworn in and what will be banned.His AG pick Eric Holder (who pardoned Mark Rich and is a staunch antigun supporter in fact he wrote a brief to the Supreme court that state the citizens have NO right to have a working firearm in their home) will have control over the ATF and we,as gun owners are in for the worst we have every seen.
http://www.gunlaws.com/GunLawUpdate3.htm

"In making this determination, the bill says, “there shall be a rebuttable presumption that a firearm procured for use by the United States military or any federal law enforcement agency is not particularly suitable for sporting purposes, and a firearm shall not be determined to be particularly suitable for sporting purposes solely because the firearm is suitable for use in a sporting event.”

In plain English this means that ANY firearm ever obtained by federal officers or the military is not suitable for the public.

That presumption can be challenged only by suing the federal government over each firearm it decides to ban, in a court it runs with a judge it pays. This virtually dismisses the principles of the Second Amendment."The last part is particularly clever, stating that a firearm doesn’t have a sporting purpose just because it can be used for sporting purpose -- is that devious or what? And of course, “sporting purpose” is a rights infringement with no constitutional or historical support whatsoever, invented by domestic enemies of the right to keep and bear arms to further their cause of disarming the innocent."


"“The Democrat members of the Judiciary Committee are all sworn enemies to the Second Amendment and are unlikely to be swayed at all by any firearms related arguments, but might hesitate to confirm based on Holder’s participation in the pardons of 16 Puerto Rican terrorists and billionaire financier and arms merchant Marc Rich [and perhaps the Elian Gonzalez abduction by federal agents Holder authorized]. Any letters to Democrats should focus on those issues."


be sure to thank all those fellow gun owners who voted for this while your handing in your guns.

I'm treating this as just a rumor at this point but what's being said is that Obama plans to issue an "Executive Order" banning the further importation of ammunition of ANY kind. He can do this without going thru Congress since it's an international trade issue from my understanding.
Jim

This is something a lot of people better be waking up to. the constitution is not about "Sports". Once everything has been outlawed except those for Sport, the Sportsman has not a defence left. You best believe the Anti's know this.

I don't read nothing in there about busting chunks of clay or even sport hunting for that matter. Not very many of us are dependent upon hunting for food for our survival. Sportsmen are the primary people standing up for the constitution, but way too many are willing to let the very ones it protects "GO".

"I don't read nothing in there about busting chunks of clay or even sport hunting for that matter. Not very many of us are dependent upon hunting for food for our survival. Sportsmen are the primary people standing up for the constitution, but way too many are willing to let the very ones it protects "GO". "

There are many,even some on here (one bozo who wants me banned!)who would gladly throw other gun owners under the bus with the mistaken view that "they will never ban what I collect/shoot".

When the second amendment was written the Brown Bess was the assault weapon of the time,and the framers knew those rights to "bear arms" where to protect US from THEM.

When the time comes how many will fall in line a register and then turn in and how many will stand up for our freedom?