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#127096 12/21/08 09:04 PM
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Hi all, just wanted to get your opinion on this one:

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=118528986

Still trying to learn about German guns as much as I can.

Is the price in the ballpark ($1750 reserve)?

Any comments or opinions would be great!

All the best!!

Greg


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I think he's about 500- too high, polished receiver (originally cc'd) and re-finished wood...my opinion...to me it would be worth where it is now, 1200 or so......assuming it's not loose, since he doesn't mention the mechanics...?

Last edited by PA24; 12/22/08 06:45 PM.

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If it was all original you couldn't touch that gun for less than 3K. IMO, it's a fair price in today's market which, IMO, is way overpriced, but facing facts, if you want a good, beautiful, nicely redone, sxs, that's the price you are going to pay, or you are going to have to wait until people hit on a little harder times, and are willing to take less for their guns.

binko


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It's a pre-1912(or pre-April 15, 1912) Model 8E(overhanging scears only) with a large crown which notes either excellent quality or excellent shooting characteristics, but not both. I think it to be a 1912 longarm. I don't see a Eagle "Nitro" stamp and guess it to be on the sides of the tubes. Many Model 8Es were made between the serial number range 181xxx to 184xxx in 16, 12 & 20 with production number in decreasing order respectively. Serial number 182542 looks to be very similar but without the beavertail forend, which would have been the only special order item. For some reason case colors didn't fair well and at one time varnish was also applied. The left tube is choked and there doesn't appear to be a "crown" over "W" on the right tube to indicate any constriction. The hunting scene on the floorplate looks to be atypical as does the special attention to the church windows. The smaller bores are coveted and fetch a premium.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
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Originally Posted By: gjw


Still trying to learn about German guns as much as I can.

Is the price in the ballpark ($1750 reserve)?

Any comments or opinions would be great!



Your time and money could be spent a whole lot wiser.

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Almost 3" of drop there, Greg. That'd be a problem for me and, I think, for quite a few other shooters used to modern dimensions. I also wonder why the L barrel measures .730 and the R barrel .709. Almost sounds like he measured choke in the R barrel. But if he did, that'd mean the L barrel is cylinder, based on standard 12ga bore diameter. But it's marked 13/1 on the flats, which means standard bore diameter ought to be .719. If so, that'd be .010 constriction in the R barrel and over .010 honed out of the L. I'd ask some question about that if I were really interested.

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Yeah, the right barrel at the muzzle is bigger than the bore. 26" barrels? A very hard sell. This gun has been around, too much. Minty used later Sauers are $600 guns and shoot as well as the early ones. Collector grade early guns need to be nearly new to be more than shooters.

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Hi gjw..other posters have brought up some valid points on this Sauer. I will add the following..from the photos it is difficult (by me anyway) to tell if the receiver has been polished. A number of the early Pre-WW1 Sauer boxlocks I have seen owned and handled appear to have a high degree of alloy to the receivers. With time and handling the case colors mostly do fade to almost zero as already noted. Much handling will cause these receivers to take on a high degreee of shine or polish, mostly on the frame panels and in the areas of the trigger plate. The main point of the above is that the photos of the Grade 20 (model 8E in the Continental/German market)with the powerfull fill lights used to photo this piece emphasise the lack of case colors and hightlight the "bright" nature of the steel alloyed frame. Only by having the gun in hand can one really tell if the recevier has been polished.

A couple of plus' about the piece is the screws appear to be in fine shape, it is equipped with ejectors, has the original(?) buttplate and it has the checkered side panels, which are rarely seen on the model 8E's. The buttstock has the typical Sauer German comb/nose and from the photos it does not appear to have been refinished. (The Beavertail fore end may or may not be original. I have never seen a beavertail on a Pre-WW1 Sauer boxlock before but JPS&S would provide a customer with almost anything that they desired)

As pointed out the right tube does not have the Crown W which means a cylinder bored gun. The barrels appear to have original finish (look at fourth photo in the series the barrels have an underlying slightly brown or plumb cast to them) Also and should be noted, proof loads for the american market export shotguns (prussia marked pieces) prior to WW1 generally are not seen on the barrels.

I do agree that the piece while intriging is overpiced in todays market, mostly due to the short 26 inch barrels and almost three inches of drop. If I was seriously interested in the piece I would ask for high resolution photos (plus more than what is posted) to asertain if the frame has been cleaned up etc. I would also ask to have the seller confirm the .709 and .730 numbers that he posted in the description. Over all it is truly best to have the gun in hand to really look it over and make the necesary measurements (especailly the bores and chokes and wall thickness if possible)and to make sure it is tight and on face. Good luck! Jeff Stephens

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I agree with eightbore, there are PILES of Sauers around for $600- and less with much better cosmetics than this particular gun...some later 20's and 30's manufacture and some pre-WW I guns like this one. I also think the beaver-tail forend was an afterthought sometime in the 30's when they were a big hit.


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"I agree with eightbore, there are PILES of Sauers around for $600- and less with much better cosmetics than this particular gun."

I would really appreciate anyone that finds one of these $600.00 Sauers for sale, to post it here or to send me an email. I've purposely been looking for one for a friend, with no luck. With "PILES" of them out there, it would seem logical that I should have stumbled on one somewhere after 2 months??? I guess I am just not trying hard enough...that's what all my teachers used to tell me?

binko


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Binko:
I don't know where you hang out, but the gun shows around here and in Vegas are full of them....for the electronic toilet (computer) viewing go to GunBroker, do a "smartsearch" and look up a seller who uses the name "lbf", without the quotes...lbf, he always has six or eight of them for sale, mostly the late 20's and 30's guns....if you want something special...suggest you "ask him"....go get 'em padre....


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I would like to find the pile of bargin Sauers also.


Mine's a tale that can't be told, my freedom I hold dear.


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Just look these up ...GunBroker items as follows..all JP Sauer's..item's 119060621, 119060664, 119060868, 119060948, 119061378, 119061579, 118987835...just to name a few !!! All $350.00 to $750.00 USD....AND THAT'S JUST ONE SITE...!!!!!!! Seller "Blackbern" also sells Sauers.......and can get you whatever your pocket book can handle........

Last edited by PA24; 12/22/08 09:07 PM.

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All 12's and my friend wants a 16 ga only, but IMO, none of the guns you listed are in the same class with the one originally spoken of in this post. The wood and engraving just don't measure up.

binko


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118973544 is a 16.....119061378 is probably the best of the bunch for 700 bucks, but 12 ga...I think if one refinishes the wood on any of those old Sauers, the WOOD would look "better" than the overpriced 12 that started this thread...but...TO EACH HIS OWN...!!!!

Last edited by PA24; 12/23/08 10:58 AM.

Doug



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gjw Offline OP
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Hi all, just want to thank all of you for your responses. I really was not going to bid or make an offer on this gun. I did notice some of the "problems" a lot of you pointed out. I just wanted to get a few second opinions so to speak.

I always learn something here and once again you did not fail to educate me.

Again, thanks!

All the Best!

Greg


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There are certainly some questions I'd ask about the Sauer that started this thread. That being said, comparing it to the 16ga mentioned on gunbroker . . . that's a gun that needs a total "facelift", wood and metal, to make it look as good as the gun Greg posted. Forend may well be a replacement. (I don't see any indication of checkering.) It's likely an extractor gun vs ejector, and it's a lower grade gun to begin with. Comparing the two is like a beat-up Sterlingworth to a nicely redone Fox AE. There's a reason for the difference in price. . . not to mention that the guy selling the gun Greg posted knows how to take photos that really show you something. (Bad photos can hide a lot of sins.)

Here's a personal recommendation: If you're looking for a good, basic used German gun, keep your eye on Mark's Born Again Birdguns (one of the advertisers here on doublegunshop). His prices are reasonable, and Mark is a talented gunsmith who makes sure his guns are right before they leave the shop. His inventory is a bit low right now, but that's because he prices guns to sell--and they do sell.

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Larry, Thanks for the kind words. My inventory is not as low as my website reflects. I just don't have the time to keep it as up to date as I would like to. Unfortunately I don't have anything in a German 16 at this time. American, Spanish and Belgian yes but no German 16s.

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A friend, Ken Buch, imports many nondescript Sauers, Merkels, and Huskies from Sweden. Unfortunately, he has plenty of customers for them and doesn't have to put them on his internet site. I prefer a nicked up, slightly tarnished gun with very low mileage to one that is shined up after a lifetime of heavy shooting. Ken's website is kebcollc.com He is in MD.

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Why did Fritzie strike word PRUSSIA when the gun was made in THURINGIA?
I mean Suhl and Zella-Mehlis are not located in Prussia. Is this some kind of Baron Rollo von Grandmaster concept?
Another thing is some of them "Pruky" guns have crossed pistols monogram struck on them while crossed swords of the Teutonic order would seem so much more appropriate, no?

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L. Brown:

Binko's friend wanted a 16, we are not comparing it to the gun that started this thread.....you are missing the point....if you want to do that compare it to 119061378 which only needs the wood re-finished and the sling swivels removed.....nice cc, nice blueing...nice gun, nice price..

Last edited by PA24; 12/23/08 11:22 AM.

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I agree with Mr. Brown on MBAB. If you let Mark know what you want he can probably find it sooner or later. I've had more than several dealings with him and they have all beeen first rate. He's also done some repair and cosmetic work for me and it was first rate also. As soon as the economy picks back up I'll be in the market again.
Robert Krull

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The gun mentioned by PA24, the very low mileage Sauer on GB for $700 buy it now price, is one of the guns imported by my friend Ken Buch at kebcollc.com The seller is able to sell this gun for that price after giving Ken a fair markup. I've bought guns from both of those guys and the better ones are wonderful and underpriced. I bought a very lightly used Husky top lever hammer gun, fluid steel, from Ken for a ridiculously low price. He often has such guns, but, unfortunately, he doesn't seem to put them on his site. He has dozens more guns in stock than are listed on his site. Call him. You have to contact him for availability. PA24 picked a good gun to compare with the gun in the original post, which was no bargain at half the price.

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PA, that tired dog you posted from gunbroker was YOUR comparison. I'd have to see that gun rather than bad photos of it, but based on what I can see, I wouldn't pay the asking price. That is, unless I were set up to totally redo the gun myself. Paying what that one needs to make it look like the gun that started the thread would more than double the asking price. And even then, I'm not sure what you'd have. There were at least decent photos of the gun that started the thread, including some of the barrel flats which tell you a whole lot about the gun and save you the trouble of asking quite a few questions--which a dummy on the other end might or might not be able to answer.

I know where there's a very nice West German Sauer 16, basic Model 60, can probably be bought for a little under $1,000. Anyone would be WAY ahead to buy that gun compared to the 16ga from gunbroker you suggested.

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Larry, I don't think you're keeping up with the conversation. The gun I am referring to is the gun PA mentioned in the recent post, GB#119061378, a high condition 12 gauge, not a 16 as you state, for $700.

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I certainly don't think the gun pictured at GB, #119061378, comes close to the original one on this thread, and $700.00 is top dollar, for that one, even in today's market, IMO.

binko


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I don't think you need to pay $700 for a good Sauer, and I said so in my earlier post. However, the GB gun is a good example of a fairly high condition, usable Sauer for less than the price asked for the one in the original link, a gun of doubtful originality and probably high mileage. Sure, I like early Sauers better than late ones, but condition and originality are more important

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If I were buying a certified, rare, "Antique", I would want it "Original", but these guns are far from "Rare", and IMO not what I would consider "Antique", so, condition and "APPEARANCE", is what I look for in a gun, and being that I am not interested in antiques, Appearance is the most important to me, assuming the condition is good.

So, my statement returns, I have been unable to find a Sauer or a Simson in any gauge, in the $700.00 dollar range, that looks that good, and if someone knows where I can find one, I would like to know about it!

Thanks in advance,

binko


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What is this recent fascination with J.P. Sauer of Thuringen? Is it recent articles in D&SGJ, or does everyone want to be Prussian Barron von SMITHoff?

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Betty Page died, and I have to find something else to get interested in???

binko


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Eightbore:

You're right, they are not keeping up with the posts.... some folks drive a Chevy, some drive a Ford and some have a Jap car or truck in their garage.....it is a mute point, everybody likes something different.....and that's a good thing !

LIFE IS TOUGH, BUT IT IS REALLY TOUGH IF YOU ARE STUPID----
JOHN WAYNE


Last edited by PA24; 12/24/08 05:38 PM.

Doug



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I think it's that time of the year. "Fritzie" guns and Christmas trees go together like? bread and butter.

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Originally Posted By: eightbore
Larry, I don't think you're keeping up with the conversation. The gun I am referring to is the gun PA mentioned in the recent post, GB#119061378, a high condition 12 gauge, not a 16 as you state, for $700.


eightbore, these threads can get a bit hard to follow, especially with mention of multiple guns. However, I was indeed referring to one of the guns PA listed earlier from gunbroker, a 16ga. That's why I started my response with "PA". Had I been responding to your post, I would've started my post with "eightbore". I even gave an example of a Sauer 16 I know of (more recent gun, West German vintage) for about twice the price of the 16ga PA listed--but, IMO and based on the very poor photos accompanying the gunbroker ad, it also appears to be more than twice the gun.

The 16 to which I referred, after PA recommended it to Binko, is gunbroker #118973544.

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Originally Posted By: J. Stephens
Also and should be noted, proof loads for the american market export shotguns (prussia marked pieces) prior to WW1 generally are not seen on the barrels.

Jeff Stephens


I've read this several time and am looking for a bit of clarification. If the longarm has the required "Prussia" country of origin mark, a pre-WWI version(post-1912) destined for export and devoid of a "Nitro" stamp, does that mean that German export longarms weren't exposed to Nitro proof even though they were slated for the US market where tbey would more than likely experience high pressures than in Germany? Was there an exception for German export guns?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

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ellenbr...to calirify above...I have yet to see an American market import Sauer shotgun (Grade 3,30,40) which was produced prior to WW1 with the nitro proof (Crown N or Crown NITRO)stamped on the barrel flats. (Draw your own conclusions from this nitro proof stamp ommision) Exceptions to the above statement are re. nitro proof stampings are the very few recordings of Grade 60's in my files. As I am sure that you know, Crown N or Crown NITRO proof mark was not generally seen on Sauer shotguns produced prior to 1912 (with exceptions of course)or round about s/n 176,XXX or so. Also and for what it is worth...If I am (Sauer) producing and sending shotguns to a market (USA/NA) that does not require or have a formal proof requirement, why go thru the extra step? After all these gun making companies were in it to make money and if they did not have to take the unnecessary step of proof for certain export custmomers/markets, why go thru it?

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Jeff:

Thanks for the clarification which supports what I surmised and makes me rethink the pressure aspect on the pre-WWI exports. The models you refer to are Shoverling, Daly and Gales, correct? But were there any A&F models running concurrently/coterminously? Part of the explaination may lie in the method in which the parts(longarms) were exported/imported. Court records show they imported parts with the tubes and wood being in different compartments which reveals a need for assembly numbers. Any one want to take a stab at the pressure differences, if any??

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

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I think PeteM or I, or both, have posted the caselaw on Schoverling, Daly and Gales before but here it is again:

"In the latter part of October, 1890, the firm of S., D. & G. imported from Europe articles described in the entry as "finished gunstocks with locks and mountings," unaccompanied by barrels for guns. The collector levied duty on them as guns under paragraph 170, in Schedule C of the Act of October 1, 1890, c. 1244, 26 Stat. 579. The importers protested that they were dutiable as manufactures of iron, under paragraph 215 of Schedule C of the act. The general appraisers affirmed the decision of the collector. It did not appear that the gunstocks had formed part of completed guns in Europe, and the question of the importation of the barrels was not involved, although it appeared that the gunstocks were intended to be put with barrels otherwise ordered, to form complete guns. The circuit court, on appeal by the importers, reversed the decision. On appeal to this Court by the United States, held that the decision of the circuit court was correct."

From: http://supreme.justia.com/us/146/76/case.html

Kind Regards,

Raimey
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What is interesting with this case is that it documents, at least in this instance, how guns were entering the country and avoiding the tariffs. This allows the maker to meet customer price points. Again the "purchaser" is not an individual but a large American retailer.

It certainly raises the question as to how many may have been following this model. The lack of proof marks on early guns makes me think they used some part of the proof house laws to circumvent the costs involved. The export gun market during this period was highly competitive. Too bad we do not have complete custom records by country and year.

Pete

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Excellent PeteM as that is exactly how I see it. They Germans were exporting parts and the agents in North America were importing parts which allowed them to use loop holes in the law at both ends.

Someone confirm or deny that the Supreme upheld the Circuit Court's decision as a result of the appeal of S, D & G and allowed S, D & G to continue their import game. I've read other caselaw used in the appellate process which invovled a case on sugar.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

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Raimey,

This is what I archived from a previous discussion about the case. It is basically the same as the link above.

http://laws.findlaw.com/us/146/76.html

Quote:
U.S. Supreme Court
U S v. SCHOVERLING, 146 U.S. 76 (1892)
146 U.S. 76

UNITED STATES
v.
SCHOVERLING et al.
No. 690.


November 7, 1892

Sol. Gen. Aldrich, for the United States. [146 U.S. 76, 77] Albert Comstock, for appellees.


Mr. Justice BLATCHFORD delivered the opinion of the court.

On the 20th of October, 1890, the firm of Schoverling, Daly & Gales, composed of August Schoverling, Charles Daly, and Joseph Gales, imported into the port of New York, from Europe, articles described in the entry as '12 finished gunstocks, with locks and mountings.' The collector assessed a duty upon them of $1.50 each, and, in addition thereto, 35 per cent. ad valorem, under paragraph 170 of the act of October 1, 1890, c. 1244, (26 St. p. 579,) in Schedule C of that act, entitled 'Metals and Manufactures of Firearms:' '170. All double-barreled, sporting, breech-loading shotguns, valued at not more than six dollars each, one dollar and fifty cents each; valued at more than six dollars and not more than twelve dollars each, four dollars each; valued at more than twelve dollars each, six dollars each; and in addition thereto, on all the above, thirty-five per centum ad valorem. Single-barrel breech-loading shotguns, one dollar each and thirty- five per centum ad valorem. Revolving pistols valued at not more than one dollar and fifty cents each, forty cents each; valued at more than one dollar and fifty cents, one dollar each; and, in addition thereto, on all the above pistols, thirty-five per centum ad valorem.' The importers, on November 15, 1890, filed with the collector, under section 14 of the act of June 10, 1890, c. 407, (26 St. p. 137,) a notice in writing, addressed to him, objecting to the decision of the collector, and stating their reasons for so doing. That notice in writing, called a 'protest,' claimed that the articles were only parts of guns, and were dutiable at 45 per cent. ad valorem, under paragraph 215 of Schedule C of the act of October 1, 1890, (page 582,) which reads as follows: '215. Manufactures, articles, or wares not specially enumerated or provided for in this act, composed wholly or in part of iron, steel, lead, copper, nickel, pewter, zinc, gold, silver, platinum, aluminum, or any other metal, and whether partly or wholly manufactured, forty-five per centum ad valorem.' The protest stated that the articles in [146 U.S. 76, 78] question were simply parts or accompaniments intended for use in the manufacture of guns or muskets, were not guns or muskets, and could not be classed as such completed commodities.

Under section 14 of the act of June 10, 1890, the collector, on the 16th of December, 1890, transmitted to the three general appraisers on duty at the port of New York the invoice, entry, and protest. The assistant appraiser had reported to the appraiser, November 28, 1890, that the articles in question were 'gunstocks, with mountings complete, ready for attachment to the barrels, which arrived by another shipment,' and that 'the gunstocks and barrels, when attached, make double-barreled breech-loading shotguns, complete.' The collector, in his communication to the general appraisers, referred to the foregoing report of the assistant appraiser, and stated that the merchandise was returned by the appraiser upon the invoice as 'breech-loading shotguns,' invoiced at a value not over $6 each, and that he had assessed duty on them, under paragraph 170, at the rate of 35 per cent. ad valorem and $1.50 each.

The board of general appraisers took the testimony of Mr. Daly, one of the importing firm, on December 19, 1890, and it is set forth in the margin. 1 In its report to the collector, [146 U.S. 76, 79] signed by all three of its members, it is said that, if the importation was simply one of gunstocks, without the gunbarrels required to make a complete firearm, and the case rested there, the articles could not be regarded as completed guns, so as to be dutiable under paragraph 170; that the testimony of Daly disclosed the facts that the firm of Schoverling, Daly & Gales had imported the gunstocks in question, and had made an agreement with another firm by which the latter were to order the barrels, with the mutual expectation that the stocks and barrels, after arriving at New York, were to be put together so as to make complete guns; that Schoverling was a member of both firms thus colluding together; that such a mode of evading the payment of duties could not be tolerated; and that the decision of the collector was affirmed.

On the 6th of January, 1891, the importers, under section 15 of the act of June 10, 1890, applied to the circuit court of the United States for the southern district of New York for a review of the questions of law and fact involved in such decision of the board of general appraisers, by filing in the office of the clerk of said court a statement of the errors of law and fact complained of, which were that the duty had been assessed on the articles at $1.50 each and 35 per cent. ad valorem, while it should have been assessed, under paragraph 215, at 45 per cent. ad valorem, only. On the filing of the application, the circuit court made an order that the board of general appraisers return to the court the record and the evidence, with a certified statement of the facts involved and their decision thereon. [146 U.S. 76, 80] On the 22d of January, 1891, the board of general appraisers filed in the court their return, embodying the protest of November 15, 1890, the assistant appraiser's report of November 28, 1890, the collector's communication of December 16, 1890, the testimony of Daly, and the opinion and decision of the board. The case was argued before the circuit court, held by Judge Lacombe, which entered an order, on March 20, 1891, reversing and setting aside the decision of the collector and that of the board of general appraisers, and adjudging that the merchandise should have been classified and assessed with duty at the rate of 45 per cent. ad valorem, under paragraph 215 of the act, as 'manufactures, articles, or wares not specially enumerated or provided for in this act, composed ... in part of iron or steel.' The opinion of the circuit court is reported in 45 Fed. Rep. 349. It stated that there was no evidence that the articles were ever assembled or brought together with the gunbarrels on the other side; that there was no finding to that effect by the appraisers; that, if there were such a finding of fact, the court would be constrained to reverse it, because there was no evidence in the record to support it; that, for all that appeared, the gunstocks might have been bought from one manufacturer, and the gunbarrels from another; that the tariff act laid a duty upon 'sporting, breech-loading shotguns,' and laid a separate and different duty upon the parts of which such shotguns were composed, as manufactures in whole or in part of metal; that it could be fairly assumed that congress, by that terminology, meant to allow importers who chose to do so to bring in fragments of a combination article by different shipments, and then to employ domestic labor in putting them together; that it might have been intended to induce importers to employ to that extent the labor of this country, instead of having the article combined abroad; that, under the language of the statute, there was nothing in the shipment in question except gunstocks mounted,-articles which were properly described in the act only by the phrase 'manufactures composed wholly or in part of metal;' and that, therefore, they should pay that duty, and no other. [146 U.S. 76, 81] On March 20, 1891, the attorney general of the United States, under section 15 of the act of June 10, 1890, applied to the circuit court for the allowance of an appeal to this court from the decision and judgment of the circuit court. On the same day the application was granted, the appeal was allowed, and it has here been heard.

We are of opinion that the judgment of the circuit court must be affirmed. The contention on the part of the United States is that the transaction, as conducted, was a fraud upon the statute. But the question was solely as to the gunstocks. Sampson v. Peaslee, 20 How. 571. There is not in the statute, in paragraph 170 or elsewhere, any imposition of duty on parts of breech-loading shotguns, except the provision in paragraph 215. There is no duty otherwise imposed on materials for such guns.

In the act of October 1, 1890, in paragraph 154, a duty is imposed on 'axles, or parts thereof;' in paragraph 165, on 'penknives or pocketknives of all kinds, or parts thereof;' in paragraph 185, on 'wheels, or parts thereof,' and 'tires, or parts thereof;' and in paragraph 210, on chronometers, 'and parts thereof.'

In the present case, the intent of the importers to put the gunstocks with barrels separately imported, so as to make here completed guns for sale, cannot affect the rate of duty on the gunstocks as a separate importation. Merritt v. Welsh, 104 U.S. 694 .

In Robertson v. Gerdan, 132 U.S. 454 , 10 Sup. Ct. Rep. 119, the statute had imposed a duty on musical instruments, and had not imposed the same duty on parts of musical instruments; and it was held that pieces of ivory for the keys of pianos or organs, to be used exclusively for such musical instruments, and made on purpose for such instruments, were not dutiable as musical instruments, but were liable to a less duty, as manufactures of ivory.

We do not think the decision in Falk v. Robertson, 137 U.S. 225 , 11 Sup. Ct. Rep. 41, applies to the present case. It nowhere appears that these gunstocks had formed part of completed guns in Europe, nor was the question of the importation of the barrels [146 U.S. 76, 82] for the guns involved. In the present case, the dutiable classification of the gunstocks imported must be ascertained by an examination of them in the condition in which they are imported. Worthington v. Robbins, 139 U.S. 337 , 11 Sup. Ct. Rep. 581.

Reference is made by the counsel for the United States to the provision of section 2 of the act of January 29, 1795, (1 St. p. 411,) which reads as follows: 'Where any article is, by any law of the United States, made subject to the payment of duties, the parts thereof, when imported separately, shall be subject to the payment of the same rate of duties,' as not having been repealed. In 1 St. p. 411, opposite the act is the word '[Obsolete.]' That provision is not embodied in the Revised Statutes, and we think it was limited to the case of duties then imposed by law, and did not apply to duties imposed by subsequent tariff acts. Tariff acts passed subsequently to the act of 1795 have provided that the duties theretofore imposed by law on imported merchandise should cease and determine. If the provision of the act of 1795 had been still in force when the tariff act of 1890 was enacted, it would have been wholly unnecessary in the latter act to impose a duty on parts of articles, as well as on the articles themselves, in cases where it was deemed proper to impose such duty upon parts.

This appeal was prosecuted as against the firm, but this defect may be cured by amendment, and the motion to that effect is granted. Estis v. Trabue, 128 U.S. 225 , 9 Sup. Ct. Rep. 58.

Judgment affirmed.

Footnotes
[ Footnote 1 ]
Protest in the matter of importation of certain gunstocks by Messrs. Schoverling, Daly & Gales. Statement of Mr. Daly. Examined by Gen. App.
Somerville: 'Question. You are a member of the from of Schoverling, Daly & Gales? Answer. Yes, sir.
Q. Where are you doing business? A. In New York. Q. This importation, as I understand you, consists of this item marked '225 here,' finished gunstocks, with locks and mountings? A. That is it.
Q. Shotguns? A. They are parts of shotguns,-parts of breech-loading shotguns.
Q. When did you make this order for this importation? A. I telegraphed for it a short time before this invoice.
Q. How many of these are there here? A. Twelve of these finished gunstocks.
Q. Did you at the same time order the other parts of these guns to be sent? A. I did not. That is all we received. We never received the barrels.
Q. You made no order for the barrels? A. No, sir. (Reference made in the special report of the appraiser to protests of Schoverling, Daly & Gales against the assessment of duty at the rate of 35 per cent., etc.)
Q. What we want to know is whether the barrels of these guns have arrived by another shipment, within your knowledge. A. As a member of the firm of Schoverling, Daly & Gales, I do not know it, because we have never received any invoice.
Q. Never made any order? A. No, sir.
Q. Have you any agreement with any other firm that they were to order the barrels of these guns? A. Yes; we have.
Q. With the expectation on your part that they were to be put together here? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Have those other importations been received by the other firms? A. A good many of them, I guess, are in bond.
Q. What firms did you have an understanding of this nature with? A. With A. Schoverling.
Q. Is he a partner in your house? A. Yes, sir; he is a partner in the firm of Schoverling, Daly & Gales, and also runs a separate business.
Mr. Tichenor. Q. Do you think the trade generally adopted this plan? A. I think they all have received goods in the same way. We have imported those stocks with the intention of putting them with the other parts imported by these other parties.'


Notice the date, 1892. This would precede many proof house requirements that were instituted later

Pete

Last edited by PeteM; 12/27/08 04:26 PM.
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Joined: Aug 2007
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PeteM:

That's exactly what I was looking for.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

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