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Roy Hebbes #125843 12/13/08 04:22 PM
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Roy: the Birmingham Test is now digitized
As published in The Field
http://books.google.com/books?id=inQCAAA...lt#PPA11-IA4,M1

and is reviewed here http://docs.google.com/View?docid=dfg2hmx7_242cxhh9hfq

Re: the various pattern welded imperfections/flaws

La Chasse Au Fusil An Essay On Shooting Gervis Francois Magne’ de Marolles 1789
"The imperfections to which a barrel is liable in the forging, are of three kinds, viz. the chink, the crack, and the flaw. The chink is a solution of continuity, running lengthwise in the barrel. The crack is a solution of continuity more irregular in it form than the chink, and running in a transverse direction, across the barrel. The flaw differs from both; it is a small plate or scale, which adheres to the barrel, by a narrow base, from which it spreads out as the head of a nail does from it shank, and when separated, leaves a pit or hollow in the metal."

Shooting Simplified James Dalziel Dougall 1865
"There are various kinds of flaws in barrels, such as “cracks”, “sand holes”, and what are technically termed “grays.” They are those little specks in the iron…from rust showing more upon them than upon the smoother surface."

The Gun W.W. Greener 8th Edition 1907
"The numerous twistings and weldings of gun-iron rods and ribands are fully detailed…and it must have occurred to the reader that the Damascus barrel is one mass of welds from breech to muzzle. This is so. Unfortunately a certain amount of burnt metal, or scale, is imbedded within some of the welds, and in the finished barrel this fragment of scale forms a “grey”…which will not colour in harmony with the other part of the barrel, but is made more apparent by the finishing processes of polishing and browning. These “greys” may appear some time after the gun has been in use, the hard metal composing the barrel being eaten into by rust…They are developed in the inside by the chemical action of powder gases, and are almost ineradicable. The harder the Damascus the greater the liability to “greys”…"

Parker 0 Grade Lifter with tiny rust inclusions (greys?) in Twist barrels courtesy of Austin Hogan








Last edited by revdocdrew; 12/13/08 08:34 PM.
2-piper #125845 12/13/08 04:43 PM
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Originally Posted By: 2-piper

At least some of the American makers did indeed proof their bbls, very similar to the "Official" British proof houses.


I'd be interested to know who the "some of the American makers" were.

EDM #125870 12/13/08 07:27 PM
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Originally Posted By: EDM
Originally Posted By: L. Brown
The blown barrel does not explain the mangled hull...

As to asking for a guarantee from a modern manufacturer to produce a gun with Damascus barrels . . .The problem is not the inherent weakness of Damascus, but rather the expense of making Damascus barrels in comparison to fluid steel.


Anyone with access to my book, Parker Guns: Shooting Flying can see a dead-ringer picture of a blown Remington twist gun (albeit right chamber with red mangled plastic shell protruding). The chamber failed about one inch forward of the breech as a result of an estimated 30,000 psi overcharge. In this instance the known overcharge explains the mangled hull, and I see no reason, nor have I read any plausible explanation of the blown Baker that would lead a person to a better conclusion than, quite simply, a similar overcharge.

Damascus-type barrels went the way of the passenger pigeon because they, too, became obsolete with modern technology. An important part of the barrel forging process was the pounding of the plastic-state metal to drive out impurities; the more pounding, the more labor involved; the fewer inclusions, the better the barrel tubes; the more expensive the process, the more costly the better sort of raw tubes.

Sir Joseph Whitworth observed the labor-intensive forging process and devised a hydraulic "compressed steel" method of removing the debris from the molten steel by squeezing the crucible as the metal solidified from the outside toward the center. Given the physics of metal going from liquid to solid, the impurities migrated toward the liquid state in the middle, but instead of forming a core of impurities at the center (last part to solidify), the extreme hydraulic pressure forced the impurities up and out, like squeezing the goo out of a Twinkie.

Thus the patented "Whitworth Compressed Fluid Steel" became the state-of-the-art metal source for shotgun barrels in the 1880s in Great Britain and eventually in America in about 1894, when Parker Brothers attached a set of Whitworth tubes to an AH grade, thus creating the AAH Pigeon Gun priced at $400 ($100 over Finest Damascus AH grade). The original Whitworth process was expensive and the barrel tubes were in short supply at first (some say "rationed" to the best English makers).

The one thing compressed fluid steel barrels had that the Damascus-type (Damascus, Laminated, Twist) didn't have was consistency. The destructive proof tests of 1891 showed English Laminated first and Whitworth second, but the Whitworth tubes were all the same, while the Laminated tubes had a quantum variation, albeit all tubes passed the non-destructive part of the test with flying colors.

English Laminated barrels had always been highly regarded...Greener said that they "shot best," while Damascus "looked best." In other words, the favoring of Damascus over Laminated (or Twist) had to do with fashion and looks, not function.But the fluid steel barrels won out for reducing the skilled-labor component of cost when the process was refined and perfected. And there was a residual, time-sensitive element of quality...

The forging process endemic to Damascus-type barrels could never cleanse the metal like the compressed fluid steel process. Thus there were always inclusions--or "grays"--that were like time bombs waiting to do their destructive work. The better more expensive barrels minimized the problem by having had more labor expended in forging out the impurities, but they still had some; the cheaper barrels had less labor and likely more grays. Black powder and the fulminate and chlorate percussion caps and primers were extremely corrosive. Over time the grays corroded and weakened the barrels, maybe not so much in a well-cared for gun, but it happened. Every man-made object from its inception is on its way to the junk yard, some faster than others: It's called "depreciation" by the accountants and the Tax Code.

So it only follows that fluid steel displaced Damascus and Laminated and Twist as the automobile replaced the horse. The Whitworth process was so expensive in 1894-95-96-97 that Parker Pigeon Guns cost $400 ($100 over Finest Damascus in essentially the same quality grade). But industrial know-how duplicated the fluid steel process at a cheaper and and more democratic level and in 1898 Parker introduced Titanic Steel barrels on their $100 gun, and a year later the VH grade at $50 with Vulcan Steel barrels. Thus the forging of iron and steel barrel tubes as shown on PeteM's DVD became a lost art. Which still begs the question; Are Damascus-type barrels safe? And the answer is:

Slip a loaded shell in the chamber, sand-bag the gun, tie a long string to the trigger, step back around the corner of a sturdy building (all the standard precautions taken by Sherman Bell)...and yank the string. The thing I have noticed on this double-gun gig is the seemingly excessive interest of anglophile gun cranks in obscure proof marks on their foreign guns...yet where is the movement toward proofing all those old American wall-hangers? These homemade guns are the subject of endless speculations about suitability for purpose, and this thread is a glaring example of speculations to the 3rd power.

Methinks we will never know whether a spurious primer got in the powder, or the loader gave a double dose, or somehow there was a residual obstruction, or maybe a gray just finally compromised the strength of the chamber wall (in connection of extending the chamber for modern 2 3/4-inch star crimp shells?). What we do know, however, is that these things seem to happen to people who load their own shells and fire old wall-hangers that have not been proofed with anything approaching a modern proof load of, say, 18,500 psi.

I personally have no interest in shooting Damascus-type guns, but don't see this problem as strictly endemic to wall-hangers. Some of the fluid steel guns sold by Jim Julia with stated barrel thickness measurements have had caveats about safety. Maybe we all ought to send our guns to Tom Ambrust for some proof testing...or maybe more likely, we will just continue feeding our old doubles what we believe to be "light loads" and hope for the best. EDM


The best synopsis of the whole subject!-Dick

HomelessjOe #125876 12/13/08 08:03 PM
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Can't say for sure when they started, Joe. Brophy says the Hunter Arms proofmark first appeared about 1922. Walt Snyder can perhaps contribute further on Ithaca, but his book has proofmarks (of the individual who proofed the barrels) starting in 1930. Proof testing was in force at both Winchester and Parker by 1930; not sure how much earlier. Turn of the century, back when there were a lot of Damascus-barreled guns . . . not sure.

L. Brown #125879 12/13/08 08:18 PM
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Parker proofed barrels.

Best,

Mike



I am glad to be here.
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Originally Posted By: fallingblock
Jim,
Greener is using old unused damascus tubes on new guns so at least the English think they are safe. The proof house also will still give an old damascus gun nitro proof so they must think they are safe also.
It looks to me like the Baker in question came apart from a over pressure incident of unknown cause. A modern gun could and likely would do the same. This does not mean any damascus gun is safe but they are not dangerous if one is careful. And as Sherman bell showed they may take much more pressure than one would expect even when in poor condition.
Cheers,
Laurie


Laurie:
With all due respect, can you or anyone else on this forum show us a brand new double with a guarantee by a British maker using old stock Belgian damascus barrels? I had heard somewhere but don't remember exactly that a maker was in fact considering making up new doubles with leftover damascus barrels but utilizing Teague or someone elses liners.
Jim


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James M #126006 12/14/08 03:09 PM
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From http://www.wwgreener.com/Shotguns.htm

"Barrels - are made of the highest quality steel and bored to maintain the famous choke boring improvements, made by W W Greener in the 1870s, to optimise shooting performance, and to ensure patterns of shot guaranteed to meet customers' exact requirements whether for game, wildfowl or clay pigeon shooting. A few pairs of guns are being made with interchangeable steel and Damascus barrels."

I believe these came from old Greener stock rather than the Heuse Lemoine barrels found and sold by Peter Dyson
http://www.peterdyson.co.uk/cgi-bin/sh00...l%23aS629#aS629

Last edited by revdocdrew; 12/14/08 03:12 PM.
Drew Hause #126009 12/14/08 03:20 PM
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Originally Posted By: revdocdrew
From http://www.wwgreener.com/Shotguns.htm

"Barrels - are made of the highest quality steel and bored to maintain the famous choke boring improvements, made by W W Greener in the 1870s, to optimise shooting performance, and to ensure patterns of shot guaranteed to meet customers' exact requirements whether for game, wildfowl or clay pigeon shooting. A few pairs of guns are being made with interchangeable steel and Damascus barrels."

I believe these came from old Greener stock rather than the Heuse Lemoine barrels found and sold by Peter Dyson
http://www.peterdyson.co.uk/cgi-bin/sh00...l%23aS629#aS629


Interesting Drew:
I for one would like to see an example outfitted this way. I also would like to see how the Warranty reads. I'm still wondering how they're getting this past their legal consultants whose prime concern anymore is product liabliity?
I's also like to know how they can insure that the purchaser won't use "heavy duck loads e.g" in the damascus set of one of these?
Jim

Last edited by italiansxs; 12/14/08 03:21 PM.

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James M #126017 12/14/08 04:10 PM
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Jim, nothing will leave Greener without having been subjected to proof at the British Proofhouse. And, just like in this country with guns made in this country, British (and European) shells are loaded to pressures that match up with the proof levels of the guns in question.

There is no guarantee against stupidity, like someone shoving a 3 1/2" mag in a gun with only 3" chambers (assuming it would fit and fire). Do you think American gunmakers can guarantee that anyone who buys their guns is any less a potential "Darwin Award" candidate than someone who buys a Damascus Greener--other than the fact that the Damascus Greener is going to cost the purchaser just a wee bit more than a Mossberg pump?

L. Brown #126020 12/14/08 04:31 PM
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So what d'you decide about reasons of blowing the barrel?
Could someone summarize it to me, too much to read with my poor English.

From my observations of this photos I'd say something happened when shot just leaved the cone, that's why the pressure was high about 14,500 psi (1000 Bar). I saw the same cratered 209's, when my test ammo produced about the same pressure.
Obstruction just behind forcing cone I guess and character of bending metal in this particular place says the same.


Geno.
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