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Joined: Jan 2006
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2006
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Pete as much as you study Damascus you must know that all barrels were not created equal.
Cheaper priced guns had barrels made by apprentice barrel makers...best guns had barrels hammered by the most skilled barrel makers.
Personally I don't see cheap priced guns having very high quality barrels no matter how good they look...And I don't think Damascus quality can be judged by pattern alone...and I still see pits in the pictures.
Ps.
Ky...please explain how a primer can get in the powder using a Ponsness Warren press..because I don't believe it.
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Joined: Aug 2005
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Aug 2005
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Geo Newbern, Guns do blow up, even tough ones I didn't think could be blown up. Overloaded Garand Link  
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 7,726 Likes: 129
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 7,726 Likes: 129 |
Don't worry, Yeti, I'm not gonna quit shootin' my old doubles, steel or damascus. I do think we tend to downplay or forget the risk we are taking though. I'd hate to lead someone into shooting the guns I do without the understanding I think I have regarding what loads to use and what loads not to use and the difference between them...Geo
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Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 1,583
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 1,583 |
Hell, George, I don't shoot my damascus guns these days because I've learned enough to know that I don't know enough. Much thanks to the folks here. Sherman Bell is very cool, but as you point out, there's more to it.
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Joined: Feb 2005
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 7,438 Likes: 1 |
I have reviewed the pictures of the barrel failure and have made the following observations.
1/If the shell pictured was a standard Remington 12 G. Trap load the breech pressure to be expected would be in the order of 10,000 P.S.I. This is much too high for a damascus barrel. [As others have pointed out;"LOW BRASS DOSE NOT EQUAL LOW BREECH PRESSURE".]
2/Looking at the deformation of the shell, It is my opinion that the actual pressure was far in excess of 10,000 p.s.i[ie; See Burrard, The Modern Shotgun, Vol,3 page 408, for pictures a shell damaged due to excessive pressure.]
3/ The rupture/tearing of the shell case and the damaged wads seen in the pic;suggests that there was a possibility that fragments of a shell case or wad from the previous shot could have been lodged in the barrel immediately ahead of the forcing cone. If this was the case, a wave pressure would have been generated this would have the effect of increasing pressure at point of failure by more than 200%.
4/The barrel as seen in pics; 2&3 indicates that the welding of the barrel coil[breech end] was unsatisfactory.The weld clearly lacks penetration.This defect will act a stress raiser when the barrel is under pressure.This is most likely the primary point of the barrel failure.
5/Other pictures show what appear to be serious metal defects, namely ,lamination and a crystaline structure, both of which would have a negative impact on the ultimate strength of the barrel.
6/ In pic;7 We can see evidence of pitting, but more importantly in pics; 14 & 21 it appears as though rust has developed in the faulty barrel weld and also under the barrel rib.The fragment of the barrel that was recovered is also very rusty. However this could have occured after the failure.
SUMMARY
The probable cause of failure was an incorrectly loaded shell that resulted in excessive breech pressure. A partial obstruction in the barrel due to fragments of a shell case or wad being lodged in the barrel immediately ahead of the forcing cone is a distinct possibility. This being the case, wave pressure build up would occur.The high breech pressure,combined with the defects in welding, poor metal chemistry, lamination, pitting and rust resulted in the catastrophic failure seen in the pictures.
I think the poster here essentially got it right so I really don't have much to add but this. I know you damascus fans are in denial here but I think it's apparent that a faulty technology coupled with faulty manufacturing here was a big contributor to this failure. Lets all be thankful no one got hurt but shooting damascus barrel guns is IMO a crap shoot. BTW: That M1 pictured above came apart on the first shot with re-loads of unknown origin. I suspect improper re-sizing with the bolt failing to go completely into battery as being the cause here. Jim
Last edited by italiansxs; 12/12/08 03:04 PM.
The 2nd Amendment IS an unalienable right.
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Joined: May 2005
Posts: 174
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 174 |
SUMMARY
The probable cause of failure was an incorrectly loaded shell that resulted in excessive breech pressure. A partial obstruction in the barrel due to fragments of a shell case or wad being lodged in the barrel immediately ahead of the forcing cone is a distinct possibility. This being the case, wave pressure build up would occur.The high breech pressure,combined with the defects in welding, poor metal chemistry, lamination, pitting and rust resulted in the catastrophic failure seen in the pictures.
I'd have to agree with what Roy said... How much did a Baker SxS sell for when it was new ? I'm betting the price reflects the quality of the barrels. If you summarize that everything that could go wrong, may have gone wrong, how can you be wrong? .
AKA garyg, depending on how confused and which computer Im on.
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Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 15,465 Likes: 89
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 15,465 Likes: 89 |
That's why I agree with Roy.
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Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,354 Likes: 663
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,354 Likes: 663 |
There have been some great, make that fantastic observations and comments made on this thread, but the notion that Damascus was/is an "inferior" technology is bollocks. A more accurate statement would be that good damascus was getting too damn expensive and time consuming not to mention dirty hard work to produce, and when compared with fluid steel...well, it just became more economical to produce and with the advent of alloys....probably "eventually" became stronger than damascus steel. The thousands of WORKING guns out there with Damascus, Laminated, twist barrels that have had thousands of rounds thru them (some of these guns dating back to the mid 1800's) without blowing up would be a testament to that statement I should think. This is one of the first cases, with an actual story, pics, etc. that I have seen on a blown Damascus barrel. Other than in the Sherman Bell articles in the DGJ, and those were done on purpose to "prove" a point. Now, I have also heard of blown Kreighoff barrels...blown Beretta barrels...and even a blown Rizzini barrel...but I've never seen the pics or the evidence....kinda like all these blown damascus barrel stories. Another thing....why do so many discount or poo-poo Sherman Bells study into the strength of damascus barrels? Is there ANYONE out there who has done more exhaustive research and testing of damascus to disprove or challenge Mr. Bells findings? Very Curious.  HOmelessJOe, How do you know for a fact that the apprentices made the "cheap" damascus for low-mid-good quality guns and the masters only made the barrels for the "best" guns? Please name your source for this info if you please...I would like to read it for myself and learn something new. Dustin
Last edited by LeFusil; 12/12/08 06:53 PM.
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Joined: Jan 2006
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 15,465 Likes: 89 |
The fact that there was an apprenticeship says it...
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Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,354 Likes: 663
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,354 Likes: 663 |
I guess you think they sent their best barrels to America to be put on cheap priced guns ? It doesnt matter what I think....I want to know what you are thinking  C'mon Joe....a Lefever G grade is by no means a best gun and yet some can have outstanding damascus barrels on them...Even H grades with twist barrels are very nice and by no means "cheaply" made. Still, tell me where you got your info stating that the apprentices made the barrels for cheap-mid-low-&good guns and the "masters" made the best barrels only for the best guns.
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