doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Reloading TM

I intend to load TM 1 1/8-ounce, weight-to-weight, protected within a plastic wad, and don't anticipate problems. What do you think?

I have 100 new Kent TM #5 12b paper rounds that I'm getting ready to open up and use the shot to reload in my 16 the same as you describe. Pressures might be a bit higher, but I can't see how it would be anything drastic.

I'm no loading expert by a long shot.

My buddy that owns an ammo company told me that shot like Bismuth and Tungsten Matrix will generate higher pressures because they don't have the "give" of lead shot ?

The 1 & 5/8oz. lead load I use in my 10 ga. chronos at 1290 fps...

Using the same primer, hull/wad/powder components with a 4 grain reduction in powder with a weighed 1 & 5/8 oz of Bismuth it chronos at 1260 fps.

I can't say how much pressure increase or velosity increase I would have had if I had just left the powder charge alone but according to him it could have been an eye opening amount.

Why not ask Hodgdon powder if they have any loading data. They have helped me out before and will give you any data they have for the asking. They list hevi-shot on their web site. I would use that as a starting point instead of guessing on my own.

The problem is most of what's posted is high pressure.

My 10ga. 1&5/8 oz. lead load is listed in the Lyman manual at 8500 psi and 1310 fps that's why I worked off it.

Thanks, all. Like Mark, I'm reloading for the 16, No. 5 12ga 2 1/2 paper TM salvaged from my capsize is six fathoms, still bright and black. Everything I reload is low pressure.That Kent No.5 is good over tollers.

Basic Rule of Thumb with bismuth is that same VOLUME of shot as lead will give close to same chamber pressure and muzzle velocity, all else same. My own experience agrees with this, where P&V data from Tom Armburster was control. However, I only do this with lead loads having 1000 or more psi lower pressure than I am willing to accept -- this Rule of Thumb is NOT percise.

My perception of bismuth shot is that it is harder than even "magnum" lead shot. On waterfowl it performs like Cu-plated magnum shot, dragging few feathers into bird and therefore penetrating deeper. It also patterns tighter than even Cu-plated shot, even from long, cylinder-bore barrels. I use #6 and #5 for ducks and #5 and #3 (labeled #4) for geese. Have no need for better performing shot inside 40-45 yards.

My perception of TM shot is that it is rather soft, about as soft as "chilled" lead shot. In my guns, TM shot patterns more like "chilled" lead shot, giving distinctly lower % patterns than bismuth. TM shot also draws less feathers into birds. TM #5 shot kills big mallards nicely but often patterns too thinly for smaller ducks, especially teal. I have never seen any loading data for TM shot. I seldom use TM because almost all factory loads are heavier than I am willing to shoot in most of my old hammer doubles.

Niklas

Niklas, I have no background in physics and science, but from my experience with bismuth and TM I carry TM in one pocket for "shooting" and bismuth in another for finishing off cripples. Bismuth does strange things. I have no confidence in it.

Crush a bismuth and TM pellet: the bismuth shatters easily into many particles. TM is malleable like lead. My guess is that it stays together like lead. Does some bismuth shatter at ignition, leaving the muzzle in particles?

It's a mystery to me. Friends who've shot geese with bismuth found silver streaks on large bones as if it had shattered into powder and particles. I've sluiced cripples under a Niagara of shot and water with little and no effect.

I swear by TM and use bismuth as described because I have a couple jugs of it.

My best experience with bismuth for seeing that it does have some killing power was shooting it at live pigeons a couple winters ago. I was invited to a club who's pigeon ring faces a large river so they use non-toxic shells to keep some of the whining down from the bunny huggers. Feral pigeons are tough, essentially wild birds, and it killed them just dandy shooting out of my Parker. I'd never had huge confidence in it either until that day but like King I still much prefer TM.


Destry

King,

I did a lot of patterning Bismuth many years ago, 28 gram loads at 1200 to 1300 fps from old, long-barreled, tight-choked 12 and 16gauge hammer doubles, IMR SR7625 powder Rem SR16 or Remington 12 gauge wads, Federal or Remington hulls and primers, chamber pressures around 9K psi. I did see a few pellet fragments but not many -- patterns were 80+% at 40 yds, not much room for missing many pellets. When I clean ducks and geese shot with bismuth, I do, sometimes, find a few pellet fragments, some seem result of hitting major bones. Most are intact, round pellets.

I do hear that initial bismuth shot as nearly pure Bi, which is brittle. My bismuth shot is from later, when Bi was alloyed with tin (Sn), which gives a much less brittle metal.

I also suspect that when firing heavy waterfowl loads, say with 1,5 or more oz of shot, that more pellets fare badly than in my 1,0 oz loads. I see no need for such loads.

I have never had much success killing cripples at longer ranges with any kind of shot -- much too small kill zones relative to pattern density and pellet energy. Actually, I seldom have any cripples, thanks perhaps to taking only shots I feel confident about. Typical hit with Bi-Sn results in ducks folding and only twitching and flapping some after hitting water.

After 3-4 years of shooting both Bi-Sn handloads and Kent TM factory loads on ducks, from big mallards to green winged teal, I settled on Bi-Sn for everything. Well over 50 ducks with each type of shot. I do have a few boxes of heavy 12-70 TM loads, with 36 grams #3 shot at 1450 fps(!), but have never taken them goose hunting or a gun suitable to shoot them in. Also have one box of TM 12X67, 28 grams of #5, 1300 fps loads but they are never in chambers when geese come by -- 28 grams of #5 Bi-Sn have been doing a string of 1-shot kills.

Probably next time I go pheasant hunting I will use 28 grams of #5 Bi-Sn. On last trip I used 28 grams of #6 lead (Remington Game loads, 16X67) and none of long birds (roughly 40 yards) came down dead, even with 6-10 pellet in them. Dog had to find them.

Niklas