doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com OT - steel shot in Heavy Duck Model 12?

May be this has been covered before. Would like to hear from any one using steel shot factory loads in a M 12 Heavy Duck gun. Barrel wall is very heavy on these. Any problem with bulging with or without tight choke opened up? Thanks for repliies. Joe

Joe: Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but I think most here will agree that it's not a good idea to shoot steel through any Model 12 you care about. As I understand it, damage is possible in two ways. First, the steel in the shot is harder than the steel in the barrel, so the shot column will score the bore as it travels to the muzzle. Second, the tighter the choke (Full in an original Duck gun), the more likely the steel shot will jam up at the choke and cause a muzzle bulge or worse. Steel shot has no "give" to it, whereas the lead the Model 12 was designed for is softer than the barrel steel and will "rearrange" itself as it passes the choke. Shooting steel, at best, you'll much more quickly wear our a classic, high-quality, carefully choked Winchester barrel ... and the scenarios get uglier from there.

That leaves you with three choices: 1) Find another gun to shoot waterfowl with. 2) Open up the choke to IC or Mod, which would avoid the chance of bulging and probably work even better ballistically. 3) Shoot a non-toxic lead substitute like bismuth, which kills like lead and works in a Full choke. The problem with #1 is you want to shoot ducks with your Winchester, and I don't blame you. The problem with #2 is that it costs money and ruins the gun for guys who prefer original guns and option #3. The problem with #3 is that the new shells cost a small fortune. One other option occurs to me ... you could save the original barrel for special occasions and the trap range, and find a spare barrel that some other guy already paid to open up. Good luck, whatever you do. TT

I agree. It will eventually damage the barrel. Good luck.

Can any one say that he has actually seen a barrel bulged by use of duck-sized steel shot? I haven't found anyone. Lots of stories about "a friend of my wife's brother-in-law", etc. Those don't count.

Yes. I have seen a barrel bulged by using steel shot. Circa 1980, Browning A5, less than five rounds fired, Lac Que Parle wildlife management area, MN. What folks often don't understand, is that large sizes of lead shot fired through tightly choked thin barreled guns can and will cause bluges, as will stuck base wads.
Best,
Ted

Ted - Did you mean "Lead shot" or "Steel Shot"? Was it "duck sized" or something like BB or T shot?

I agree that it will probably damage your nise old gun. I have been shooting steel no larger than #1 through one of my 97's but then again before I did I opened the choke up from full to modified. Has been no damage so far but again I am pushing 73 and have health problems so I won't be freezing my ass of in any duck blinds despite my love of waterfowling. Maybe a goose or two in a nice heated pit blind. Good luck and please don't ruin your great of H.D. Model 12. Chopperlump

The steel shot that bulged the A5 was #2s, in a 2 3/4 inch loading, that may or may not have been magnums, that were popular in the era. Wisdom (at the time) stated that if you used a number 4 for ducks, steel 2s were the choice.
Lead buckshot has bulged plenty of thin barreled doubles in the past 100 years.
Also steel shot has come a long ways, especially wads, since 1980. Models 12s, have not, however. I'd get a less valuable piece for steel.
Best,
Ted

Thank you all for replies. I don't understand how steel shot will score or scratch the barrel,modern steel shot loads are full enclosed in the shot cup. I do understand about the full choke and how the steel wont compress. Opening the choke should take caare of that. Yes?

Oh yeah, run out and have it done as soon as possible before some one talks you out of destroying one more of the finest Full Chokes ever cut in a shotgun barrel!

Cowboy- no need to be sarcastic. I ask straighforward questions and you march in like the museum curator. Its my gun andd Id rather use it for intended purpose than sit in a nursing home years from now and wish I did. You make it sound like I aught to preserve the orig copy of Dec of Independence. The gun is worth may be $1,000 or so- not a big deal.

If money is no big deal to you, then buy shells with Bismuth shot and use it for it's intended purpose. Someone down the road will be glad that you did, not that you apparently care.

Haven't Brits been shooting steel loads thru thin barreled double guns for years now? I thought that Gamebore and Eley have made 2 1/2" steel loads for a long time now that are recommended for use in older doubles across the pond??? If the choke is opened up enough (I would say IC being the tightest), I dont see a problem with shooting steel in that old model 12, they are built like tanks, Winchester always used good steel in their barrels and the shot cup on steel loads today are amazingly thick. And as a general rule, yes, opening the choke up should alleviate/eliminate the barrel/choke bulge problem.

I have a hunting buddy that has a old beat up model 24, 30" barrels that were once choked full and full, had them opened up to cylinder and IC and has shot 2 3/4" 1 1/8 oz. steel loads in it for the past 10+ years, no bulges, no blown barrels, no loose ribs, the gun is still tight and the only thing to show for it is about 150+ dead ducks and geese a season.

Dustin

Joe,I don't believe you will hurt the bore with steel shot. The modern wads are that good,but you will hammer the choke out of it. I would have the barrel threaded for screw in chokes if you must use it with steel shot. I had an early 1100 magnum done by Carlsons. Since choking takes place outside the barrel in the extended choke tubes,any damage to the choke won't affect the barrel. Just replace the choke. I got a Carlson stainless sporting clays choke in Modified and it shoots very tight with steel. I agree with you about using your gun. It is obsolete in it's present configuration for ducking. If they end up banning lead for all hunting then there is going to be millions of guns that will be obsolete for hunting unless they are really open choked.

Joe: Now go light a cigar with a couple of hundred dollar bills ... that'll show him how you roll, and it won't cost you (or your heirs) any more than altering your Heavy Duck as you propose.

Seriously, of course it's your gun and of course you can do whatever you want with it, but you need to cut Don some slack. You're the one who asked for advice, and now you're getting it, right?

Many here put a lot of time and sweat into preserving fine old guns, and get kind of worked up over things like choke-opening. What Don says of the Winchester Full Choke from that era is true ... it is very highly regarded and guys hate to see them destroyed, when so many already have been. Early on, I opened the chokes on several great old guns, only to regret it later. That's not to say that you will, but you might.

The Heavy Duck is much less common than the standard 12-gauge; George Madis suggests that less one percent of all Model 12s was a HD, and as they say, they're not making any more of them. Anyway, do what you want, but go slow and give some thought to your options. Happy hunting. TT

I still wouldn't take the chance. I remember Andy from Andy's Custom Shop saying he used to get Model 12s and 21s in all the time and the barrels were shreaded from using steel shot. If money isn't an object, go out and buy a nice used 870 and you won't have to do anything to the gun.

You picked the wrong board Joe, most people on this board are into preserving these old guns unless it is absolutely necessary to alter them. Shooting steel out of a classic pump is not absolutely necessary.

Pls read my first posrting again. I asked for advice from any one using steel shot loads in a heavy Duck. Not from apprentice curators & theorists and certianly not from them thinking my Heavy Duck is R.E. Lee's pistol or Eisenhower's Mod 21. I can sure shoot bismuthh or other cnon gtox shot but try to fly to far way places whikle limited to 5 kg of shells? And then the xray operators still give you a hard time. You gotta shoot whats available locally and that is steel. As far as buying a S/B 2 or a 870 you can do that if you want to, I will shoot my Mode 12. Again I ask from any one who has done this, not them that keep guns stacking in safe and take them out with white gloves on only for vanity to impress friends. Joe

Just be bull headed, your arrogance speaks volumes, so do what the hell ever you want. Your going to anyway despite good advice.
A "hard time" for a high roller like you is likely deserved.

What Ole' Grumpster is trying to tell you is only 1 out of about 100 model 12s is the "Heavy Duck" magnum gun. Steel shot is actually iron and softer then modern gun barrel, but large shot size and tightly choked older barrels don't make for a happy combo.
Don't mind Don Moody if he smiled his face would crack!

I have personally seen one total,Model 12, "Heavy Duck" barrel ruined by steel shot. This was years ago before it was "common knowledge" that full choked guns were not well suited for steel shot. You do what you want. If you end up with a barrel with issues you have been warned. I have seen over a dozen guns total that steel shot has ruined over the years and all but one owner was not warned before the problem. The one who had been warned ruined a 870 barrel so it was not the end of the World. He just cut it off and used it for quail. How does a Heavy Duck quail gun sound?

I'll make you one hell of a deal Joe - I swap you a Heavy Duck front-end with a Poly-Choke for your unaltered one and pay you a few hundred dollers to boot; and you can shoot steel in it till doomsday.

Nooooo, the English think the gun must be "modern" variety with minimum proof of 120MPa.

Joe, Worth Matthewson wrote in BIG DECEMBER CANVASBACKS that his waterfowl gun of choice for many years was a L.C. Smith, in which he shot nothing but steel loads. He was(is?) one of the most prolific duck hunters along the Pacific Northwest coast, so it was used a lot. He wrote that it was only after many years' use when he took it to a gunsmith and had the chokes measured that he found he had been shooting the steel through two extra full tubes. According to him, no damage to barrels or chokes.

But then, maybe Elsie barrels are tougher than Mod. 12's.

I want repliers to know barrel is packjed up- ship today to get thechoke opened to 20 points. I will let all know how it worked out 1 year from now. Thank you to those that understand and I hope those that dont' learned every one don't think alike. I wish ya'll soft times in the year ahead.Joe

Old Joe,
If there is a corner in hell for guys who altered an old gun, you will have plenty of company there. Me, for one. When I posted, I assumed you had a super nice heavy duck, but, $1000 is likely a pretty well used gun, in that model. It ain't the Mona Lisa, go ahead and do as you will with it. Like I said, wads have come a hell of a long way since the early days, too.
I opened a first year 20 gauge model 12 from beyond extra full to right in between IC and MOD, and never looked back. I might add the gun was in need of wood, and so rusty you had to wash your hands after handling it, when I got it. With a black Old English pad, plain, but, nice replacement wood, a jeweled bolt, lefty big button safety, and a re-blue, it looks and performs just fine.
Good luck.
Best,
Ted

One thousand should buy one in very good original conditon. Last year I almost bought all original piece with about 30% blue remaining for $499. It was day before Christmas and I got tired of wainting for approval so I nixed the deal. These guns are not that expensive as one must remember most modern fowlers want Benelli or Beretta 3.5" super-autos with extended tubes. Not many takers out there for "9lb" pump with fixed full barrel.

I have a friend who shot cases of steel through a Model 12 Heavy Duck back in the 80's without any trouble and it never had the choke opened. Was he just lucky? Probably, but that's a fact, and a true story.

I've seen a lot of duck guns in my travels and only ever seen one that had been really wrecked with steel. It was an ancient Stevens Arms and Tool Company 12 gauge pump, slight bulge behind the choke, and the bore had some pretty deep lines in it from the shot cutting into it.

A friend bulged a field grade LC Smith just ahead of the chamber with a steel shell back in the late 80's though I really don't know as you could fault the steel on that one. When he pulled out the empty, the case wall was partially gone so there was something up with that shell besides it just being steel shot. It kicked him so hard that his lip was bloody.

Those are my personal observations and experiences with old guns and steel shot, I'm not making any judgements or saying what's right / wrong.


Destry

Im not a big waterfowl hunter but I've often wondered if allot of the early problems with steel shot ruining barrels was caused by the steel shot rusting....possibly into a slug of sorts.

Caused by improper handling of the ammo...such as rolling around the bottom of boats and blinds only to be shot the next year.

I shot a Fox Sterlingworth with .040 chokes with steel for quite a while with no damage. A friend still shoots his A Grade Fox with steel, no damage after years of use. Stan's illustration of Worth Mathewson's L.C.Smith mirrors my own experience. Some people just feel they must spend money on expensive shells and expensive choke work, are not happy unless they write the checks. I have been shooting my AYA 10 magnum with steel #2, #4, and BB for years without damage. It has about .043 of choke in both barrels. I also sold a wonderful prewar Model 12 Heavy Duck for $500. A less than near mint Heavy Duck is just a hunting gun, not a collector piece. The AYA and the Model 12 are in the same category: if I damage the chokes with steel, I have the barrels shortened and install Briley chokes. If I don't damage them, which I don't intend to do, I haven't spent a dime on unnessesary barrel work. With modern steel ammunition, there is no need to relieve chokes in a gun with reasonably thick barrel walls. What most posters (except my friendsDon and Markethunter) on this thread do not know is that the barrel on a Heavy Duck is very much thicker than the barrel on a standard Model 12 and should never show any effects from steel shot, whether the choke is relieved or not. By the way, Joe, last summer I found three Federal shells long lost on an island on the Inland Waterway off Bogue Sound in NC. Regardless of my wife's protests, I brought them home. She thinks my ammunition collection is a bit overwhelming already (as in "Enough Already"). I will open them up and see what they look like inside if they are in fact steel shot shells.

I bet shortened and tubed "Heavy Duck" M12 would make a wonderful flushing turkey gun.
Makes me wonder when that Sherman Bell finds out something useful for himself like using iron shot in ole' tightly choked doubles. Lets face it, who give a shit about ole' twist barrel Parker under-lever being able to hold up to Remi Pb proof load. It's a waste of perfectly good proof loads.

So am I to assume that all those bbls that were bulged , scratched , or otherwise damaged , before steel shot was mandatory for waterfowl hunting , were caused by people useing steel shot before it was the law ?

What both Murphy and I are saying is that steel shotshells made today are a lot different than ones made in 1985. They have super thick shotcups, the shot is plated so it doesn't rust, and they'll actually kill birds just fine. The old stuff was none of of these things and would screw up a gun if you got unlucky.

All that being said, I don't use it in my Parkers, I buy those expensive shells that Murphy mentioned. But once my stock of those is gone I'll have to rethink my position as I can't afford them anymore. I might just buy a beater V grade and start banging away with Winchester Supremes.

DLH

I like the comment Markethunter made about modern steel shot shells, "they'll actually kill birds just fine". The most important thing to learn about steel shot shells is that the old wive's tale about their patterning is just that. Steel shot ammunition is just like any other ammunition. The more choke you put in front of the shot, the more shot goes into the paper. The "old wive's tale" for those who have no grey hair to aid in thinking and comprehension is as follows: "The tightest patterns with steel shot are shot with improved cylinder or modified chokes. The use of full chokes causes pattern dispersement and less effective patterns than those shot with more open chokes." In the great majority of cases, this is absolutely incorrect information, and, in my opinion, was put in the sporting media by writers who were influenced by the manufacturers in order to lessen the liability from barrel damage that was predicted from the effects of early steel shot on tightly choked guns. All pattern experimentation I have done over the years since the advent of steel shot ammunition has resulted in tighter patterns from tighter chokes. I have successfully killed big birds at extreme ranges with big loads of big steel shot for many years. I repeat, big shot, big loads. My experience is that those who complain about poor performance of steel shot are shooting light loads of small or medium size steel shot out of less than full choked guns that they have not patterned. They are also less than good shots and would have had bad results with lead shot in the same gun. I use, and have used for years for most of my waterfowl shooting, including ducks at more than decoying range, Winchester 1 3/4 ounce loads of steel #2 and BB in a tightly choked 3 1/2" ten gauge. I have never shot with another shooter who has had any better results from non steel no tox loads from any 12 gauge gun. I just wish my gun didn't weigh what it does. However, it is a small price to pay for shooting cheap ammunition with good results.

Post deleted by Run With The Fox

Were still waiting for the duck pictures.

Re: A recent poster's comment. The Model 21 Duck or any other Model 21 is not suitable for steel shot. The Model 21 3" guns are not made with dedicated thick barrels, unlike the factory 3" Model 12 which does have dedicated extra thick barrel. The Model 21 3" chambered gun and the identical Duck Model seldom weighs any more than 7 3/4 pounds in solid rib 30" persuasion. Oddly, it is not unpleasant to shoot with heavy loads, but probably because of the targets we normally shoot with it which take our minds off of recoil. By the way, I'll open those steel Federal shells first chance I get.

OK, I opened up one of the Federal shells that I found after long exposure to the elements on Bogue Sound. The shell has so much rust on the base that I don't think it would fit in a four gauge chamber. However, the shot is largely shiny and shows signs of being nearly fully protected from moisture and air. Tha bad news is that it doesn't seem to be steel unless Federal is using stainless. A magnet has no effect on it. Is steel shot normally magnetic? I assume it is. I should have realized that those NC waterfowlers would be using lead. I'm just as surprised that the lead shows very little evidence of oxidation, only minor discoloration on maybe on 20 pellets.

Bill, squeeze a pellet with a pair of pliers. If you can compress it, then it's not steel or tungsten-iron. If it does compress, then it's either lead or the old Federal tungsten-polymer. The fact that the pellets are not magnetic means it can't be steel. Federal also had their version of a duplex non-tox load that contained both tungsten-iron and steel pellets in the same shell, so check several pellets. If it's a reload, could be anyhting.

Replacement, thanks for the information. None of the shot is magnetic. It doesn't look like lead. It is shiny as a dime except for maybe twenty pellets. The pellets don't even look like the same size. It looks like a duplex load, but of what material? Federal answered an email from me last year so I may give that a shot. I'll open a shell and try to crush some pellets. I didn't realize I knew so little about shotgun shells. Actually, this discussion is a bit off topic. We were trying to verify Markethunter's suggestion that steel shot could rust under adverse conditions. I have been no help since this shell doesn't contain steel shot. Thanks again.

Bill, duplex load? Different-size pellets. On a patterning board, all the shot gets there eventually. Practically, wouldn't that make a less-effective load with a longer shot string?

It seems that the manufacturers were somewhat concerned about the effect of water exposure on their early steel loads. I mention this because I recall that Remington went to great lengths to market the water proofing on their old line of steel duplex loads, the ones that came in the cool olive drab plastic with black bases. Those were great shells for their time, and I bought a mess of them on closeout. Still shooting them through my beater 870 and my old Citori, in BBx1 and BBx2. Have a few boxes of 2x6 for pheasants in non-tox areas.

King, just saw your post. The published theory on the old Rem Duplex was that the smaller pellets gave pattern density at closer range and the larger pellets provided retained energy at longer ranges. Seems to work OK for me.

The Federal "Tungsten-Iron and Steel" seemed to be a marketing ploy to offset the high cost of the T-I by stuffing some plain steel pellets into the hull to take up space.

Were still waiting for the duck pictures? It is "We're" as in "We Are" you ignorant numnutz.-When you know what you are talking about, re: Model 12's, then step up to the plate. You want ducks- watch old groucho marx show "You Bet Your Life"- you'll see ducks up the wazoo--

In another thread you claimed to hunt ducks 60+ days I just thought a picture would be nice....

Fox do yOu have internet in your duck blind....or a dUck blind on the internet ?





Ps...Foxey you of all people shouldn't make fUn of my spelling.

Tnank you all for suppiort of my choice,start using steel shot sheels in my 12H D. Fisrt few responders mostly poopoo'd the idea and one even wished me bad times for being a high roller with no concern for wonderfull guns of days past. Joe

Joe there's plenty of those old bumper jacks out there....If you wear one or two out in your life time consider yourself awful lucky.

Fox,

When you first started posting you talked about how you did all your waterfowling with a Mossberg both here and in Montana. When did you make the switch to straight Model 12? Why don't you just shoot the Fox Magnum you always talk about?

DLH

Much as the Fox duck hunts I bet he's done wore that Mossberg out...

Old Joe, I previously posted that I had recently sold a very nice prewar Heavy Duck for $500. It was nicely refinished and well preserved and unmodified. That price to about $700 is about the most a field used HD will sell for. If you damage the muzzle and have Briley whack it and install screw in chokes, it will still be worth at least $500. Don't worry about it and don't spend money modifying the choke. The factory choke is only about .036 or .037, not a problem for a muzzle that thick.

Old Joe, you need to reread your own post above mine! I NEVER wished you "bad times". You stated that the X ray operators would give you a "hard time. The I stated that you likely deserved at "hard time". NOT "Bad Times"!

I went and reread all post. Sorry I misquote. Heres what you wrote.

'A "hard time" for a high roller like you is likely deserved"

Yes I did reference hard time by X ray operators in previous post but pray tell me your rationale in saying a hard time is deserved. Also why you concluded I am high roller? Commnets just don't make sense.

I'm looking for a Pigeon Grade HD with bad wood, cheap. Anyone know where I can find one?

Basically a tongue in cheek remark about about the cost of flying to far away places and the cost of such a hunt and then being hassled about taking Bismuth shot, of which you would like to take more of, by the X-Ray monitors .

Bill, I try to keep 2 or 3 of those for rainy days. ;^p

No I never said I want to take more bismuthh. Check post, I said when flying to ducking place you can't take more than 5kg of shells. Legal limit. Bismuth, TM or what ever. That is 4 boxes. More than enough for MOd 12 HD, but problem x ray operator spot the sshells in your baggage and give you a hard time. You ask for supervisor and get no where. Better to buy STEEL shot sheels at your destination, as many as you wnat and no hassles. Verstehen sie mich?

Don-the only Pigeon Grade(?) M12 Heavy Duck I have seen was one of the "Fubared 50's" series with the "Dog Leg" slide- a real mistake my WRA- Both Madis and Riffle detail that in their books. Have you ever seen a M12 12 ga. refitted by the factory to 3" and with a verifying letter? I have. But as the M12 HD had a much heavier WT WPS barrel-and the receiver was about .0625" thicker, I wonder how they would hold up with the 3" loads? Any ideas?? I have a friend with two std. grade M21's mfg 1948-1051 era- the 1948 has 30" barrels imp. cyl. right and imp. mod. left, and is marked 3" chamber on the left barrel breech at the 9 o'clock position- the 1951 is a Duck Model 21- 32" solid rib and is choked mod. and imp. mod- with 3" chambers- both have SST and SAE--the Duck Model has a greater wall thickness as measured with a digital vernier caliper both at the breech and at the muzzle-both barrels-did Winchester use a heavier set of barrels for the M21 Duck than for the std. M21 12 bore??

Some sort of newfangled hybrid mutant measuring device?

I think it's manufactured by Mossberg...

I bet he gets em at the same store what he gets all them Model 12's at......

Oh yeah, local shop has something that would serve rather well. It's one of them heavier then hell O/U Model 101s with long barrels and Winchokes marked 'Pigeon Grade' on vent rib. Why anybody would pick that over current Miroku made 'Citori' is beyond me. Perhaps because factory at which it was made was demolished in late 80s and parts for it are no longer available?
They also have couple of Model 23s. One is 20br and second one that comes with that gem of the box is 12ga, but both have short barrels and are also heaver then hell.

Digital verniers have been around for while now, just as commonn as typoe with a dial. Very accurate and easier to use then dial vernier caliper.

Especially in that stupid outdated English system only Americans seem to use. This country should start using metric system tomorrow.

I have shot a lot of steel #2,#3 and #4 shot through a modified choked Model 97 Winchester with no issue. I have a very nice Heavy Duck Model 12 that I have not shot steel through yet but if I was going to, I would have opened up and shoot steel through all day long.

I will not shoot steel through any of my Model 21's or other older side by sides. With opened chokes, I am sure it would be fine. Not going to open chokes to find out.

Foxy - I'd run back and buy that M21 duck with the thick barrels. It must be the only one made. M21 Duck guns had 3" chambers, full chokes, and a short stock. "Thick" barrels at the breech would necessitate a wider frame size, similar to the Parker system. No such animals in the M21 world.

Last Dollar, Old Joe, and Tudurgs, I have found that the ignore feature eliminates tha dilemma you just found yourself in.

Thanks, but no can do. The M21 belongs to a good friend, he bought it back in 1966 from a boondock gun shop in Northern MI while on a bird hunting trip. It has a full length stock- believe it is about 14 and 1/8" LOP from the single trigger to the older red pad- the one with the June 1922 patent date.

My 1938 M12 3" has a 32" barrel and the 13 and 5/8' std. shorter LOP to the same style pad- perhaps you were thinking of that when you asked if his M21 Duck had a shorter LOP? My later (1949) M12 HD with the 30" solid rib has a std. 14 and 1/4" LOP to the same style red pad, an NO extra cavity hole bored in the buttstoc for the lead weight-

That's the fun about studying, collecting and shooting older quality Winchesters; IMO, the best shotguns and rifles ever made by a large company in the USA. I have a tool and die background, and the barrels at both breech and muzzle of his M21 Duck 12 bore are slightly heavier (greater in wall thickness by about 0.0120" at breech and 0.0070 at muzzle(s) both the same-which indicates to me great care in the manufacture of the M21- Jack O'Connor wrote about his 12 gauge M21's- he apparently preferred the 26" barrel length. To each his own.-RWTF

First, I didn't see him ask if the M21 Duck had a shorter LOP. He stated that it did have a shorter LOP.
Second, The M21 Duck and 12 gauge Magnum had 13 5/8" LOP as standard.

"Runs At The Mouth" is already on my ignore list, but it's not too hard to pick up on some of his drivel from the quotes...

Very Good, LD. I'll drink to that!

Seven lines of text without a period. Must be some sort of record. Anyone have a Guiness Record book around?

Gotta disagree with you, Joe. A caliper is either digital or it's vernier, not both. "Vernier" is a specific technology for visually interpolating a measurement that falls between the scale demarcations on the caliper rule. "Digital vernier" is a contradiction in terminology, and a perversion of the language probably concocted by some marketing bozo to sell these instruments to the uninitiated. Yeah, I know they are cataloged by some outfits as digital vernier calipers, but they are just wrong.

Replacement, thank you for the information. You said there are 2 types off calipers digital and vernier. Now what do you call the type of caliperr that has a dial for direct readibg? Its niether digital or vernier accordig to your post.

Joe, a dial caliper is just that: a dial caliper. There are lots of caliper types, all with different names, some with verniers, some without, some with analog dials and some with digital displays. Some don't even have graduations on them and are used for transferring dimensions from one object to another. There is even a skin caliper used for estimating total body fat. All different. Just tools, but nomenclature is important.

Fox,

I do most of my gunning across the river due to longer seasons so I'm still shooting. I only hunt in Michingan maybe four or five days a year.

Was just over for an ice up hunt this past weekend, mostly mallards with couple black and canvasbacks thrown in for good measure. Shot my first year A-5 Magnum one day and the ever faithful Parker the next.


Destry

Fox,

If you're not really a doublegun shooter why the interest in this BBS? I'm sure the big Winchester club has one that would better suit your needs.

DLH

Maybe someone should answer Markethunter's question. That would be the first sentence with the question mark at the end. I know the answer but I know the price I would have to pay if I answered it. Someone else please take over. I've already been snakebit more than once.

He's trying to convert us to bumper jacks ?

Bill I keep thinking of B'rer Rabbit and the Little Black Tar Baby.

Best,

Mike

Thanks Joe- maybe those other idiopts thought the "digital" had to do with their anual prostate exam- Mine converts to metric if needed, and is invaluable in my gunner's workbench-But I still have the old Brown & Sharpe and Lufkin "mikes" my Grand Father used, and "sticky tight" don't mean taffy or bubble gum neither.

That is 100% correct Don- also most pre-1964 Model 70's had a 13 and 5/8" std. LOP.

Right again Joe- and if it measures accuratly, whether by a dial scale, or with a series of numbers and decimal points, who gives a Rat's Azz what they call it-if it works, that's what it is supposed to do. RWTF

I am a "semi-" double gun shooter Market Basket- and I don't apologize for my limted education as to: spelling, sintax, grammer or knowing that a Digital Vernier Caliper doesn't exist-

I won't discuss the two Parkers as they are "closed door"- But hear me out. When I grew up, there were birds a plenty in MI (Hillsdale) and CRP land and friendly farmers- You could take your Parker and your dog and put up beaucoup pheasants, miss a bunch and still come home with two fine birds. Not so today.

I am a practical man- tool and die welding, power plant code work-and I use the tool best for the job. Today, I may get one shot at a native pheasant- so I use my "Money Gun" my Dad's M12-Tournament Grade 12 mfg. 1937. Ducks, I bought the HE Fox after reading the McIntosh book "Best Guns" and I liked it- ditto an older (1922) Parker 12 Trojan- not into clays shooting, I like to kill birds, so area barn pigeons and crows and starlings are my targets- Use doubles there-

I won the Mossburgher 835 at a DU Banquet event- I never would have bought one-but now I like it, for nasty weather-and if it "disappears" like Nash B.'s famed "Bo Whooper" I can buy another one used for $250.00

By the way, why did the game agent need to check Nash's double gun for a three shot plug? Sounds like a reverse spin on Val Kilmer as "Doc" Holliday- three shots from a "two-holer" w/o opening to eject and reload.

I sold the older Trogan and bought a VH 12- 225318 for the PGCSA "date fanatics herein" 30" Full and Fuller DT-Ext refinished by Turnbull (allegedly but NOT confirmed by him) and after I sold the Fox- shoot man, I'm almost 70-still strong and no "Santa Claus" gut, but an 11 lb. shotgun (aprox)-that's more than a loaded M-1 Garand weighs, Iand I don't carry one of those around either. I did by a L.C. Smith 0E 12 (which I like better than the Parker VH-also a Turnbull restoration w/0 letter) and a Model 12 28 gauge, and stuck the rest in the bank, as I saw hard times with the Stock Market and now Big Three deal a comin'

Are you subtly hinting I should find a Winchester forum? Dave Weber allows fine shotguns here, and he has the good sense and tase to consider, as I do, the older Model 12 "The Perfect Repeater"> And in spite of utter numbnutz like Homeless Joe and Lowell Glenthorne, both of whom could *&^%-up a wet dream, I find folks like Don Moody a pleasure to read, also Old Joe, even you at times. And although he and I will never share a dram of Tullamore Dew together, your pal Eight Bore does know his shotguns, I will give him that "In Spades" as they say.

I have owned and shot and studied Model 12's all my life-does that make me an expert-Hell No. Does that make me an experienced shooter? I'd like to think so- Happy Holidays, and drop a Canada with that big 10 bore Parker for me-

Oh, the Fox went to a major chain-might be up on their list sometime, or, as I suspect, the Gun Dept. mgr. may have bought it with his discount "from the store"- Great gun, but even Nash stopped using his second Becker Magnum Fox as he aged- tempus fugits, so feets, don't be a failin' me now!!

Au Sable- of sand. I always have cold Guiness and Killian's in the fridge, just in case old Calvin "Rusty" Gates Junior should be out of Grayling- Records, like cherries, and there to be broken, not framed.

Yup- say two of those beauties at Paul's Gun Shop recently. Both solid ribs, target grade wood and solid red pat- June 1922 pat'd. Both priced close to 4 figures however.

Y'all be sure to tune in on Christmas Day when the spirits flow at an even greater rate.

There is another crowbar out there you might like it's called Winchester X-1. It has very solid feel to it. Unfortunately last one I have seen had full fixed choke barrel, no rib, 2&3/4" chamber and weight of at least 8lbs. The tag was crazzzy $499, but with features almost nobody wants it's about $275 gun.

Yeah, Fox, in the sprit of Christmas, come on over to a Winchester site if you like. Most of us ole cramugens are over there too, much to the dismay of most!
Try this:

http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/index.php?c=8

They all need to be rebuilt before you start shooting them, as well. If you find a Super X1 new in the box, with the bag of aftermarket parts you need to rebuild it, for $275, then, you might have something.
Best,
Ted

Assuming that you are referring to the ubiquitous Chinese Ringneck, there are no "native" birds in North America. They may be wild, but they are not native.

Most machinists who work in high $ environments do have the ability to correctly identify their tools. Precision in communication leads to precision in the finished product. Merry Christmas!

Maybe he works at Market Basket...

Browning isn't a bad choice. I looked over new 'Satin Hunter' 12ga O/U with 89mm chambers and Invector Plus choking for 1k. One can nix all sorts of critters with that piece ranging from sparrow to ostrich and everything in between. One would have to be a bit to cook off 3.5" mag in that thing, but they could if they chose to.
If I wanted a classic auto I would go with now nixed Browning auto 5. The best ones are late production Mirokus with Invector Plus choking. Better steel and capable of handling ALL types of shot.

Stick a sprig of Holly up where "da sun don't shine" Slick. I said I had a machine shop background (Thanks to my GrandFather_ and when I started in his shop in the 1950's I learned to use AMERICAN made micrometers, verniers w/o and dials or read-outs. I didn't say I was a "friggin tool & die maker like you-when do you plan to retire from "Beecher Tool & Die"- soon, I would guess. I welding to both API and ASTM codes in power plants and pipelines first, later learned the TIG (that's TUNGSTEN INERT GAS-old timer that taught me called it HELI_ARC) and obtained my journeyman's card (UAW)- welding the three basic types of die steel: AIR, OIL and WATER Hardening grades- so don't give me your cheap *&^% about not knowing tools, their nomenclature, or whatever stick a bee up your bonnet about my postings herein. Three things I know fairly well: Welding (ferrous and non-ferrous) Winchester Model 12's and Model 70's, and vintage Harley's- the rest is just "extra frosting on the cake"- If you would spend more of your time actually reading my posts with an open mind, instead of a prejudice against me, we both might (real stretchy here) learn something, as I have from Old Joe and Don Moody and Eight-Ball, re: Model 12's, and obliquely, the great Model 21 (which I can't afford)-

Best example of my position here- Market Basket Hunter was once asked on this web thingy to detail his assumed vast knowledge or Parker guns, as he shoots beaucoup Parkers in the 12 and 10 "Big 'Uns- for waterfowl- unless I mis-read his reply, if so, my apologies, as he seems to be "for real" and not a flake like you- he said something like this: "What I know about the innards of the Parkers you could print on a postage stamp, I just shoots 'em is all."

Who cares if I call my verniers: either sweep dial or later series digital readouts- or even "brillingstompers'- as long as I don't confuse them with C-clamps or standard anvil micrometers, and read them accurately and build to exact print dims. what's the friggin' diff?? Get a life, and give up trying to ride me hard-you'll ended up "Bucked in the O-K corral"..

You girls need to get over yourselves and take a break. Hell, it's Christmas, break open a good bottle of whiskey and have a drink.

Don't tell Foxie to drink whiskey as his posts are already very difficult to understand.