doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Need Help In Identifying A German Shotgun

Hello Everyone,

I was hoping there might be someone who can help identify a German Shotgun that I have had in my family for some time.

I've set up a website with detailed photos, but up till now have not been able to get an ID on this beautiful gun.

http://germanshotgun.blogspot.com/

Any help would be greatly appreciated!!

Thanks,

Anthony

Hello Anthony,
This 16g double with German Krupp barrels was proofed in 1929 in Weipert/Vejprty, Czechoslovakia.
Kind regards,
Jani

Hi Jani,

Thanks so much for the quick response. Could you tell me more? How did you come about with the identification?

Thanks,
Anthony

NPw .... Nitro Proof Weipert, Bohemia, Austria-Hungary,1891-1918; Vejprty, Czechoslovakia, 1918-1931 (?)
29....... 1929
These are common Austro-Hungarian markings which were also used post-WWI for a number of years in some of the countries that were constituted in 1918 when Austria-Hungary ceased to exist.
Weipert/Vejprty was an importand gun making center; probably the most well known maker was Gustav Fückert with his patented Kronengewehr (Crown Gun).
Regards,
Jani

Interesting - I agree with Jani, looks like a gun built in Weipert in 1929 by the NPw and numeric string, and yet the barrels show the German Eagle-crown-over-S 'smoothbore' proof mark along with the Weipert marks without any other German marks visible in the photos.

If the complete gun had been built in Germany there would be more German proofs on both barrels and action. The lack of any German proof on the action makes me think that the gun was built in Czechoslovakia and used a set of tubes out of Germany.

Like so many of these pre-WWII guns, establishing just who made it is unlikely, particularly in this case where any German marks on the barrels are unlikely to relate to the gunmaker and the only marks on the action body are Czech.

It's always a wonder to me that whomever made a fine piece like this wouldn't mark it. Unfortunately common, but still a wonderment.

SM, in the day these guns were made, guns were made by the village/town gunmaker, of course. If you had the money and wanted a gun that is where you went. Everyone within his sales area knew him and knew his products. Signing would have been superfluis and ostentatious. I doubt that he ever considered that someday somebody in USA would wonder at his work; quite beyond his imigination. The norms for distribution of goods was vastly different from today. Hard for us to imagine he wouldn't sign his work and equally hard for him to imagine craftsmen of his skill level now vieing for global distribution.

Very Interesting, Thank you all so much for the input. Has anyone noticed the Initials on the butt of the Gun? It looks like "HK" I wonder if this was the owner or the maker?
[img]http://tinyurl.com/5mw92f[/img]
Any idea on the gun's value?

Here is the link to the better photos which may help identify the crest. Click each photo to enlarge.

[url=http://tinyurl.com/6dhf2w ]Close-up photos of crest[/url] http://tinyurl.com/6dhf2w

Thanks so much!
Anthony

The "crest" under NPw actualy seems to be the Czech standing lion mark.
-Jani

Jani is correct. The rampant Bohemian Lion was the mark of the 3rd proof that replaced the double headed eagle. The Weipert Lion has a 2 on his breast plate while the Prague Lion has a 1. Some sources give that the Lion replaced the 2 head eagle in 1931 but there are sources and examples that point toward a replacement date as early as 1928. On the underside of the left tube is that a "R.S." in an oval? The tubes are more than likely from the Sauer plant and were proofed/proved in Suhl hence the German proofmarks and the action(Model 17 less overhanging scears??) could also have been forged at the Sauer plant. Another name of speculation for source or assembly is Robert Schlegelmilch or H&K Schlegelmilch. Although I have seen a drilling with the name of Schiwy of Berlin which had similar pin/screw configurations and I realize yours is a double. Interesting front pin/screw configuration.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Thanks Jani & Raimey!

The Initials inside the oval are "H.S." Interesting about the rampant Bohemian Lion, I couldn't make out what it was. Thanks.
I guess though, we still don't know the maker? Is there another gun similar to this one out there? What's out there nowadays that is new and comparable to this gun?

German Shotgun:

H.S. - possibly Hermann Schlegelmilch of Zella-Mehlis who was a gun barrel drawer. Your longarm experienced preliminary/provisional proof in Germany due to the fact that it appears to be void of the 1st and 2nd marks signifying it experiencing proof in the Austro-Hungarian Empire. The Proof Conference of 1914 allowed countries to adopt rules to acknowledge each other's proofmarks although some countries like Franceand Italy didn't incorporate the rules into law until the early to mid 1920s. Your double has the rampant Bohemian Lion which is the mark of the 3 proof firing. The "NP" w/ sub. "W" is the mark of semi-smokeless or Nitro.

Maker, no idea just yet. It appears the maker or firearms merchant around Weipert purchased the components in the white from Suhl and/or Zella-Mehlis.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Dear Raimey,

Fascinating! Know of any photos of Hermann Schlegelmilch??
Still would love to learn the maker of this gun!

Thanks again,
Anthony

It seems I've answered my own question and have found a photo of Hermann Schlegelmilch. See it here: http://germanshotgun.blogspot.com/

German Shotgun:

Now there was also a Hermann Schlegelmilch of Suhl who was a gun stocker prior to WWII and might have been the same person or a son or father. The Schlegelmilch folk were very competent weapons makers. Casper was a specialist gun barrel maker while Franz was a barrel blank maker possilby all funded by Ernst Wilhelm Schlegelmilch who possibly purchased components from Sauer or had Sauer to make longarms and roll stamp his name on them. There were a couple more Schlegelmilch folk with Reinhard Schlegelmilch being a stocker. Any relationship between "H.S." and Hermann Schlegelmilch is pure conjecture on my part but we have the initals on the guns and the gunsmith names in the directories. If you handed me the longarm and gave me a very finite amount to time to make the call: with the Krupp steel on the tubes and the "H.S." I would say it was a joint venture of Sauer & Schlegelmilch and a firearms merchant/gunsmith in Bohemia. As a side note, a monogram of "H.S." found on 6.35mm pistols probably stands for Haenel-Schmeisser(Carl Gotlieb Haenel & Hugo Schmeisser). So as several have posted, we may never know the exact maker due to the passage of time and destruction of info. It was a cottage industry with many doing many functions. If we had a list of contractors and subs we might have a start. I don't know that I've seen a no-name Bohemian longarm as most have the name on the rib or somewhere, but yours could well be an example. Is there a Lion on the watertable near the "NP" sub "w"? Nice coordination of info on your blog.

On 10th glance I think I see the Sauer "Caveman" mark under the "2" of the "16.2" under the left tube. Then again I see the Sauer "Caveman" mark in my sleep. Can you tell what the mark is?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Dear Raimey,

Excellent information! Thank you so much! As I am a newbie in this field, you'll have to be more specific when asking me questions: "Is there a Lion on the watertable near the "NP" sub "w"?" Yes, I believe it is.
"On 10th glance I think I see the Sauer "Caveman" mark under the "2" of the "16.2" under the left tube. Then again I see the Sauer "Caveman" mark in my sleep. Can you tell what the mark is?"
Which photo are you referring to for the caveman? Can you send me a photo of the caveman mark?

Thanks,
Anthony
filmcity@nycap.rr.com

Anthony:

Have a gander at the 1st pic on the 3rd row at Cabela's site which lists a Sauer 20 bore hammergun with typical Sauer marks at: http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/conten...erarchyId=11653 . The Sauer trademark from 1882 is the "Caveman", possibly Hercules(but I've been reprimanded for this reference) at say the top of the barrel flats. It could be found on the tubes, the flats or the watertable and on all. I'll email you one if I have a electronic copy. Note that there are some letters in an "oval" on the underside of the right tube. Sometimes the rib hides the marks.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

ellenbr:

Cabela's is mighty proud of that Sauer. At that price I suspect they will own it a long, long time.

The action is fit for doppelbuchse 'express'. Obviously "Kaiser roll und Sohn" poured everything into the "box" except intercepting safety feature. The gun has distinct but pleasent taste about it. A very strong flavour if you will.

No Caveman it seems, but I did shoot these other photos taking a closer look at the mystery marks. It looks like the letter "S" with a crown that has a cross on top. Or, if you look at a side view, it looks like a grazing animal.

What do you see?

Anthony:

I don't see anything just yet. The "Crown" over "S" is the German proof mark noting the tube is destined for shot as a load at double the service/standard load in the first proof while the Imperial Eagle/Proof Eagle- Beschussadler neuer art(grazing animal) notes the tube has experienced threefold the normal charge. I don't think the amount was changed in the 1912 rules.

Jager:

I believe you to be spot on that it is a double rifle action by Sauer & Sohn.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

I now see that the mark overstruck by the 16.2 could be "HS" and for the person responsible for fitting the tubes to the action. I don't see an "oval" around it and it could or could not be the same person as the other "H.S.". A few choices are:

Hermann Schlegelmilch of Suhl
Hermann Schlegelmilch of Zella-Mehlis
H. Schaller of Suhl
Heinrich Scharfenbert of Zella-Mehlis
Hans Schaum of Franken & Lunenschloss(usually "F&L") of Suhl
H. Schilling of Suhl
Hugo Schilling of Suhl
Hugo and Hans Schmeisser of Suhl - probably not
Hermann Schneider, etc.

On a previous post I noted that that there was a Sauer-Schlegelmilch connection, and Schlegelmilch did source components from Sauer as well as others, but I meant to note the Sauer-Ernst Steigleder connection as Steigleder was a firearms merchant and most firearms merchants first were gunsmiths, some being master gunsmiths.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

I thought this gun might be an early model from Heckler-Koch since there are the initials "HK" on the stock. So I emailed the company and they responded. The emails are posted on the site: http://germanshotgun.blogspot.com/