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Turkey isn't exactly an 'enemy'. They are a Muslim country (99%+) but they are a democracy. They have found it necessary more than once to take up arms internally to assure that status. If the philoposy of the Turks could be expanded in that region, it would make things MUCH easier on the USA.

Good info, all.

I do understand that those who have had bad luck with guns made in Turkey have a bad taste about them.

However, I think you may feel differently when you see these. The internals are a pretty as the outside of the gun.

If this were a $10,000 gun, it would be easy to do everything.

At two grand, you are not going to have a sidelock. It is a nice trigger plate action, with good color case hardened receiver. Barrels of deep blue. Single trigger for now. No barrel selector. Non-automatic safety. Barrels of 26 and 28-inch length, for now. I suggested 27 and 29 inch barrels, but I'm strange that way.

Trigger pull on the pre-production guns is heavy, but they say they are aware of that, and will have it right when the guns hit the shelves.

Future gauges will be on gauge-specific frames. That is, a different frame for the .410, the 28, etc.

I also asked that they bring in some left-handed stocks and make them available for swap, even if it does take a modest charge. Without the option of a left-handed stock, I can't use it. I think the stock has a through-bolt, making bending the stock problematic. I discovered that on a J.P. Sauer boxlock.

What would you think of a waterfowling model? Heavier, 3-inch chambers in a 12-gauge? Barrels suitable for steel shot.

As for guns made "by Turkey" or Turkey beign an "enemy" of the U.S. . . . I don't know what to say. This is a gun made by an American company (S&W) in a plant it built overseas.

Now, if you think the market will pay $5,000 for the same gun, just to have it made in the U.S., that's an argument I would have a hard time accepting.

Just thinking out loud here, I own side-by-sides made in the U.S., Belgium, Japan, Germany, and Spain.

Which is or was an enemy of the U.S.?

Hey, it's a personal decision, and anyone's opinion is as valid as anyone else's.

The quality of the guns, however, is factual. I would invite anyone to look at these guns with a critical eye (understaning the price range). They should stand up to comparison with pretty much any $2,000 double I know of.

Have others had a chance to see/shoot the Kimber Valier? It's above $5,000, made in Turkey, and is a nice 7-pin sidelock.

Not to stray too far into politics, but Turkey is like many foreign countries - they are not spouting off too loudly against the US right now, but if/when the time comes they won't hesitate to join with whatever anti-US force develops.

During WWII, many arms factories were converted to military arms production. That's part of why we were able to win. When Turkey joins the enemy side, will they have any problem with us converting the Turkey plant to arms production so we can use those arms to fight them? I suspect so.

Having sold a number of CZ(Huglu)in my shop to very satisfied customers I think Turkey can produce, at the aforemention price point-$2,000.00 a very maketable/salable SxS. These are not, NOT original L.C. Smiths/Parkers/etc. How they will compete with Tony Galazan's RBL is a real question. US made vs. overseas???? More "engraving", excellent wood to metal fit, outstanding wood, choice of single or double trigger, ejectors, on and on, at the relative same price point. The S&W decision on triggers is IMO a real put off. Two barrels are for the choice of two chokes in the order necessary, not some arbitrary engineers idea of what/how I shoot. Regarding politics/allies/friends, it is well to remember that governments have none, only "interests", and those are of the "moment". Best, Dr. BILL

Hi Tom,
I'd like to see something NOT made in Turkey, Russia or Iran. I'm tired of reading the usual crap about being "a great buy, for the money"! What else would make it a great buy? That's like saying a Mossberg is a very handsome gun, for it's looks. A SxS for $400 will be a piece of crap, no matter where it's from. Give us more $2000 doubles from Japan or Spain, two triggers and no da@#ed automatic safety. L'es le bon temps roulette! JL

I respect your opinion about quality and craftsmanship but don't write off the Turks, ML. Middle East politics is a long game. The Turks were not of much help to the U.S. going into Iraq but could be of assistance in getting out. They were splendid allies in Korea. I don't think one was taken prisoner.

Well, I'll fess up right now, I'm a guy who was out with a Mossberg today (forgot my bismuth at my friends house, who couldn't make it out hunting at the federal wildlife area that is non-tox only, and had to settle for a Mossy 500 and steel 4s-and, yes, I had a great time). And, I feel I've always been a 'sorta "big tent" gun kinda guy, with an appreciation for the good stuff, and for the stuff that is just for meat on the table.
But, I'm tired of marketing people picking that same $2000-3000 price point and sticking it up my "consumer" ass with few or no options that matter in the long run. You can have an RBL in any gauge you want, as long as it's 20, or a Gold Label in everything that is 12.
Who comes up with that as a price point? And why would that individual expect me to be happy with what comes at that price point? My new midsize Chevrolet cost $23,000 and will have rust holes as big as anything else on the road in less than a decade.
I'm a big boy, let me give them a price point, and give me exactly what the hell I want. I'm well aware that the gun that sells for, say, $8000 is going to be much, much nicer(and I've got guns that sold in that price range, or, more, to go with the less than $500 cheapies) give me the option of something better than the marketing/bean counters tell me I can have. I don't need a $2000 new double anymore, been there, done that. Maybe somebody (maybe a lot of somebodys if the "marketing" people are right, but, I sure as hell 'ain't one of them) needs such a gun, but make sure S & W knows to get in line behind all the other $2000 guns that I don't even read the reviews about anymore. I've had it up to here with single trigger, poly finish, hot blued, screw choked, white line spacer, plastic grip capped, double plastic bead, vent rib, 3" chamber, gold duckys, laser checkered, rolled engraving, single gauge offering doubles designed by some marketing degree puke wearing Guci loafers with a cell phone in one hand and a palm pilot in the other, who wouldn't be caught dead buying a hunting license, and built in the third world. Screw that. A beat up Sterlingworth 16 will fly out the door of any pawnshop in the nation at $1000, and the manufacturers today don't have a clue why. Or, how. And that actually makes me sad when I ponder it. When did it become what they want me to buy and at what price point, instead of what I want?
Best,
Ted

I am available for consultation.

Tom,
I'll admit a small prejudice against Turkish made guns - and openly admit it's a prejudice, not based on personal experience but on fear of the unknown/untested - and it has nothing to do with politics or concern that Turkey may convert a SxS factory to nuclear weapons production. My fear is these guns won't survive 10-20,000 shells.

Back to what I want in a new SxS, I'm basically agreeing with the request for a clay target gun config;

• Balance - barrel contours designed by tort lawyers don't balance well IMO,
• An option for long barrels; 30" or 32",
• No bulged muzzles to accomadate fat choke tubes (fixed or thinwalls, either are OK with me),
• Durability - this means proper steel and hardening of parts - polishing of the internals is meaningless in comparison. I think S&W might allay some fears by openly discussing steel types and hardening processes for internal parts,
• No gaudy overblown engraving with little gold plated birds flitting about - keep it simple or leave it off. A little bit of elegant hand work is preferable to 100% coverage of photo-etched. The old superposed grade I is a good example of what I mean.
• Option, or standard!, for a long LOP, The American gun standard of 14 1/4" LOP fits the standard 1930's era American man but us boomers are mostly bigger (Remington, hear me? Probably not, too busy going over re-org plans).
• High grade wood without an epoxy finish. Option is fine.

I don't expect your friends at S&W to provide all those features for $2K.

"When did it become what they want me to buy and at what price point, instead of what I want?"

I don't know, Ted, but with cars it ended when Toyota provided cars we wanted to buy instead of what Detroit wanted us to buy when we didn't know better.

I commend the new guys for making doubles for new and less-discriminating shooters. Over time they'll make a gun for those who know better.