doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Why the popularity skips with some sub-gauges?

I think overall the gauges that evolved (survived) has to do with the weight of shot in a "standard" load. Each of the "survivors" is precisely 1/8 oz. more/less than the next closest other survivor, from 10 through .410. So you have an incremental choice of load, depending on what gauge you shoot. My $0.02 FWIW.

I can only speak from a hunting and sometime clay perspective. but in the right hands on woodcock and grouse a .410 is deadly and in any hands a 28 will perform very well compared to 20,16and 12 ga. I guide bird hunterrs in Maine for woodcock and see alot of abilities and guns. Sub-guages are very capable killers and darn fun to shoot and carry. My only problem is alot of them in sxs are a proportioned too light and / or short. Brian Bilisnski @ fieldsport told me several year ago that hte 16 and 28 were his top sellers. So in some small circles the 28 has "bloomed" I don't know if that trend continues or not.

Why else would I buy a sub-gauge???
If my gun is going to weigh 6-6½ lbs & have bbls of 28" or longer I would Jolly as well carry a 16ga which has a much broader range of usefullness. While readily admitting the sub-gauges are much more capable than many give them credit for, they still have no advantage over a light-loaded 16 or 20 "Unless" a reduction of weight is desired.
There are of course a lot of various opinions on things, & I do not live in grouse country. I do recall reading many years ago by the noted writer Roger Barlow "You can't Build a Grouse Gun Too Light". As I recall one of his favorites was a 28ga Darne having a wt of about 5lbs. In my opinion a 28 should weigh in the 5-5¼ lb range.
I have no interest at all in the .410. It just never made "cents" at all to me to pay premium prices for reduced performances.

I was doing something else and came across this most interesting letter from Pietro Fiocchi about the .410. While more specific than this discussion, it does point to the general mess that existed for a very long time.

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http://home.freeuk.net/4-10/36gauge.html

Dear Michael:

Your question intrigued me and i started researching on it.
I knew that 36gauge was an "artificial" denomination of a .410 bore caliber, but i wanted to know when, why and who did it...

the task was bigger than i thought...

nobody to this date has come up with a very precise answer, even the president of CIP (the european ruling committee on arms and ammunition).
This is what i found out is the following:

1 - all the official documents from european Proof houses before 1904 do not mention .410bore caliber.

2 - In Great Britain, in a 1855 and some previous documents, official gauges went from 1 (1.669") to 50gauge (.453").
In a later (1868) document, they increased the list to go from A gauge (2.000") to 50 gauge.
In all documents, 36gauge reported a .506" diameter.
The gauges were determined with the number of lead balls of that diameter with a British pound.

3 - France, in 1810, try to get away from the british system and they managed to keep alive two systems: one was similar to the British (except the french pound was different) and determined gauges fairly similar in diameter to the british system;
the other, called the bore system, was similar, but used the kilogram (for example a 32 bore was very similar to a 12 gauge).
In 1868, they killed the bore system and tried to rationalize the dimensions. They still based the determination of the gauge on the number of lead balls made with a french pound, but they decided to adjust the diameters to have 0.2mm steps between gauges.
This is probably were the .410 was born (even though was not called so; officially it was called a 12mm):
in fact, the french proof house decided that all the guns smaller than 10.6mm (roughly .410") had to be tested for pressure in a different way than the bigger ones. So, .410 became the divider between serious guns and play things.

4 - In Germany in the 1800's there is no mention of any gauge smaller than 32 (and by the way they used several different "german" pounds, depending where the gun was manufactured)

5 Austria had a system similar to the english, from 4 to 50 gauge. There was a 36 gauge with diameter 12.4mm (surprise: it is different from the french and english 32...)

6 - Italy was a mess: depending on who was the invader (Austria or French or Spain) they changed system.
The presence of more than 30 weight systems in the territory, complicated enormously the situation. Basically, in the 1800's there was no two guns alike in the entire european continent...
luckily the european gunsmiths were pretty good in making custom made balls after measuring the gun barrel. Things started to change in the 1900's, probably because of the need of having standard arms and ammunitions when assembling armies of different countries.
Here we go again:

1 - the first official reference to .410 bore caliber is in a 1904 document by the Royal british proof house; the same document has a 36gauge (with the "correct" .506 in diameter).

2 - CIP met for the first time in 1914 and managed to get an agreement on the nominal diameter of calibers from 12 to 28gauge (12, 14, 16, 20, 24 and 28). There was still some resistance on 4 and 8 gauge and other bigger calibers (up to 32 mm, which was an italian 1 gauge), and french and british 8 gauge and 4 gauge stayed until the 40's, along with the official european 4 and 8 gauge. In the 20's and 30's 14 gauge disappeared and 32 re-appeared.
All the other smaller calibers (with the exception of .410 bore) disappeared completely.

3 - sometimes in the 20's, someone at CIP (mistery, probably a swiss or a german..) probably thought of making an ordered and esthetically pleasant set up...since they had 4, 8, 12, 16, 20, 24, 28 and 32, why not calling the next smaller (and only remaining) caliber 36 (a precise 4 step).
Later they reversed to using the correct .410, but the industry had already started using the two names.
There are some 1920's catalogs from Fiocchi and Dynamit Nobel using both 36 and .410 for the same shell.

4 - In the 1961, CIP officialized .410 as the only correct name, but in 1969 added 36 in parenthesis on the dimensional tables.
Basically, they were acknowledging the situation.

5 - The confusion never died, because the french kept calling the 32 gauge 14mm, the .410bore 12mm and they added the .360, calling it 9mm (later to become a rimfire, with the name of Flobert...awesome story too).
In Italy and other european countries used 36 gauge for the shorter .410 (2 and 2 1/2" long) and .410 for the 3" long, also called 36 Magnum.
I still don't know exactly who and when created this, but i am 99% sure there is no real technical explanation behind it and it is the result of trying to get an agreement between several countries and several hundreds arms and ammunition producers, all of them with their history and reasons.
The fact is that 36 gauge and .410 bore now refer to the same shell. If i get a better answer i will let you know.

I have to thank you that you gave me an excuse to get away from the normal day-to-day routine.
By the way, some of the best sources on this kind of stuff are from a Chicago company: The Gun Digest company.

You can still find some of their books in the out-of-print sections of internet booksellers.

My best to you and to all your shooting buddies,

Sincerely, Pietro Fiocchi
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Pete

Pete you were right and I was wrong and that was very interesting.

Thanks

Mike

Mike,

Wasn't even thinking about it that way.

I found Pietro's response fascinating. Even the President of CIP does not have the answers. I knew the French used a different pound, never occurred to me that was an issue all through Europe.

Pete

Pete,

Great read, thanks for passing it to us.

It's no wonder when I started teaching my grandson last week just some of the basics of shotshell and centerfire cartridge nomenclature (in preparation to let him shoot for the first time), he stopped me and said he already had a full head.

Dave

Peters covered all the bases on their squirrel box in stating
.410 (36Ga.)(12m.m.) on the top and front of label.

Pete I didn't take it that it was meant that way and wasn't offended.

Best,

Mike

I have an early English .410 hammer SxS. It is 28" bbls, central hammers, side lever with a 15 7/8" straight stock 4 lbs 2 oz. The SN is 74. There is no makers name anywhere, just a JL on the barrels just ahead of the flats.
The proofs are 410 C and the chambers measure 2 1/2". There is no "Nitro Proof". I would guess it was made between 1896 (when nitro proof became optional) and 1905 (4?) when it became mandatory. It has all the standard Birmingham marks. I struggle to imagine who ordered a gun that small with a stock that long but there is no extension on the stock.
The gun is on the way to the Vintage Cup to shoot in .410 hammer or I'd post photos.

As to the main discussion, I have 2 14 gauges, a 32 and am looking for another 24.

Both of the 14s were conversions from percussion where only the barrels were kept. I have not worked up loads for the guns. Brass hulls are expensive and old factory ammo is north of $75 a box for 1950s Eleys.

I had Poli make a 32 on the Anson Extra action so I could shoot 32 at the Vintage Cup. The factory Fiocchi ammo is really tame, uses no shot cup and soft lead. It takes some cleaning after shooting. Ballistic has some 32ga Italian wads with shot cup, so you can load the gun up to it's full potential.

Thieves got the 24ga, so I am in the market.

Joe