doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Army & Navy Question

Rocketman: The gun I'm looking at looks very much like the one at Holt's. It's on Gunsinternational, the last one under the Army&Navy listings, and I see it's 5k not 6k. The H&H at Holt's is at an amazing price. For that kind of money it would justify the cost of fixing the stock and triggers. How can I bid on it?

Rocketman: The A&N at Holt's looks just like the one I'm looking at. It's on guninternational.com, the last one under the A&N listings. But the H&H. Wow. I'm amazed at the price. Why so inexpensive? I could justify the cost of trigger work and stock bending. I'm trying to figure out how to bid. I sent an inquiry but there was a delivery failure so I'm trying something else.
Thanks, Richard

The A&N on GI looks like BV3-OQ4-CC2.5 for $4860. Sure in the ballpark.

http://www.holtandcompany.co.uk/

Go to the Holt's homepage and follow "Buying with Holt's." You can go to the auction, send (fax) in a commission bid with your top offer, or get on the phone with one of the Holt's staff to hear the bidding and submit bids. If you go live on the phone, do note that British auctions move right along with no lingering on final bids. When the room stops bidding, the hammer falls (they try for 100 lots/hour); he who hesitates is lost. If you think you are going to buy, I'd pay Dig Hadoke to look the gun over and help arrange export to you. Do have you finances in order as the auction house expects payment promptly (I find credit cards to be the best). Do note that the H&H could exceed the top estimate; keep in mind that this is an auction, not retail prices.

If you miss, there will be more auctions with more guns. Frankly, I'd suggest you take a deep breath and study the Holt's on-line catalogue in depth, review the prices realized after the auction, and come to a very lear understanding of what you really, really want. Then, watch retail dealers and auctions for it. Buy only when you are getting exactly what you want at a price you know to be OK.

Post back if any of this raises additional questions.

Re H&H at Holts. Also be aware that it is a No2 Quality, not a royal but made for them by Scotts. Also top tang and bottom trigger plate may be bent for the Cast on scenario it could get involved to make it into a good Right handed No2. Original Quality order was as follows in 1930:-
Royal De Luxe UKP 160
Royal Hammerles UKP 120
Badminton/No2 UKP 75
Dominion UKP 47-57
Also figure $800 + duty to import a single gun
Good Luck

HL - was the Badnimton also made by Scott's?

Originally they were No2 & No3. Sometime in early 30's they were given the names Badminton & Dominion same gun and I belive same source. They were supplied by Frederick C Scott (no2) and Messrs Bennet & Bickley in B'ham (No3) At least thats what I get from Donald Dallas' Book Holland & Holland "the Royal Gunmaker"
hope this helps

Rocketman: Great advice. Who made guns that fit into the BV2 catagory? Maybe I would be better off with a box lock from one of those makers.

The majority of A & N's double guns probably did come from P. Webley & Sons prior to the merger in 1897, and from Webley & Scott thereafter. They were almost certainly their preferred supplier due to volume and quality, but it's a mistake to assume that this was exclusive. Just in the last year I've seen A & N double shotguns and double rifles that records show came from Osborne, Westley Richards, and Saunders. Non-Webley A & N guns aren't that hard to find.

rgh2 - this is the list of BV2 maker's names.

Westley Ricahrds, Dickson, Rigby, Grant, Beesley, Powell, Atkin, Churchill, Henry, Lancaster, Evans, Watson, Wilks, Greener, Boswell, Gibbs, and Lang

Their guns will generally price for 1 1/2 times a BV3 name on guns of the same OQ and CC and 3/4 the price of a BV1 gun of same OQ and CC. Any name not on the BV1 or BV2 list will be BV3.

I'd suggest the following. Make a list of the shooting activities you expect this one gun to fulfill. Check the list for realism - just how wide a span of shooting can one gun cover for you? Establish your gun fit dimensions. Establish an envelope of gun handling numbers (weight, balance to trigger, unmounted swing and mounted swing) that you can shoot reasonably well and that you also enjoy shooting. Decide how you will deal with the need for low pressure shells. Start a relationsip with a gunmaker/smith who can do stock dimension adjustments and repairs. Buy and read Dig Hadoke's book. And, my last recommendation would be to reconcile for the near future to make your first gun a BV3-OQ6-CC2 that can be easily adjusted for fit and is within the envelope of handling dynamics you want. This will be a second grade BLE in slightly used condition for $3,000 to $3,500. It will have around 50% coverage of engraving, decent wood, will be well regulated, and of sound construction. It will give you several years of relatively trouble free shooting, will add greatly to your knowledge of guns and shooting, and will return a large percentage of purchase price when you decide to move up. Think of it as your "goin' to school gun."

Here is an example:

http://auctions.holtandcompany.co.uk/asp...1&saletype=

This is a BV2-OQ7-CC2.5 = $3000 (slight shift in the priorities)
http://auctions.holtandcompany.co.uk/asp...2&saletype=

This looks like a sound gun with a few "warts" in a heavier and slower handling gun. BV3-OQ5-CC5 = $1800
http://auctions.holtandcompany.co.uk/asp...7&saletype=

A BV3-OQ5-CC1 = $6,000. A relatively modern gun in about new condition.
http://auctions.holtandcompany.co.uk/asp...7&saletype=

Rocketman. This is great fun. I have taken a deep breath and I will continue my search based on your advice. I have decided to look for a BV2 BLE. I have a nice Webley&Scott .20 700 so I have BV3 covered. BV1 is unlikley because of cost. As to the use for the gun, I have at least two shotguns for any conceivable purpose so this is a "just-to-have" thing. I do have Mr. Hadoke's book and I will continue to study it as I go about my search.
Again, thank you so much.