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Gentlemen,

What constitutes a pigeon s x s? I have a perazzi s x s with a high rib and 27 1/2 inch tubes. Could this be considered a pigeon gun with the short barrels?

Regards,

Max

Certainly sounds like a candidate for "Columbaire" birds. What is it choked? From my limited experience with box birds, most folks seem to like the 30"++ barrels. However, my boys do very well with Win. 101's 26" and 28" with Briley chokes. I use a 32" "sweet elsie" choke IM & EF. Dr. Bill

Any shotgun used to shoot pigeons could be considered a pigeon gun. I'm not trying to be flippant, but there are no hard rules about what constitutes a pigeon gun. As soon as someone posts the features that make up a pigeon gun, another poster will answert that Jonny "Flyer Killer" shoots something without those features so that is not true.

That said, typically, though not always, pigeon guns will often feature:

- longish barrels
- tighter chokes (especially in the second barrel, almost always Full)
- high stock dimensions to hit a rising bird
- heavier weight (Heavier than a game gun but not a tank and still lively.)
- Proof mark designations showing heavier proof standards
- No safety
- Flat, wide rib
- Engraving featuring pigeons
- A model designation denoting it is a pigeon gun - e.g., Scott "Pigeon Gun Club"

I have two pigeon guns based on the catalog advertisements - a Scott and a Francotte. Of the nine features listed above, they would score 7/9 and 5/9 respectively.

Good shooting,
Ken

Dr. Bill, What loads do you use in the Else? I have one I would love to use. I have somewhat hardened the stock inletting. thanks

Short BBl. Pigeon Guns. Several Former World Champs' Used 24"&26" Barrels on their James Woodward 12b O/U guns. Julia's last auction here in Maine had 2 of them. I re-Stocked a E J Churchill 12b DB'Premier' Live Pigeon gun that had 'EJs Secret Chokes for Live Birds at Monte Carlo" 'XXV'Barrels,.040"x.040"chokes, Vent-Rib.Hope this is of some interest. CC

"Hardening" the inletting on "sweet elsies" is an excellent decision, IMHO. I do it with all the ones I restock, in fact I say I "glass bed" them just like a rifle action. The commercial loads I use for box birds in my "elsie" are the WW 3.25 dram/ 1.25 oz.copper plated, 7.5#, or the Fiocchi #7 nickel plated Helice loads. I also "roll my own" using Cheddite hulls and Longshot powder-look on the Hogdon site for the recipe. Have found by chronographing that the WW loads and the Fiocchi loads are about 50-100 fps slower than they advertise, so I have gone down in the amount of Longshot I use to keep the foot-lbs. of recoil down and save the head of the stock. Load pressure really has no direct measurable affect on recoil but usually is a good prognosticator of slower/less recoil loads. Good luck,Bill

Pics Dr Bill-we want pics!

Dr Bill,

I don't guess you'll have another shoot real soon if you are getting near the amount of rain we have gotten here in the piedmont. I'll second that request for pic's.

Derrick

European flyer shooters favored short barrels at least into the seventies, maybe even today, but I have no knowledge of recent trends over there. I have a receipt from an Italian gun store that shows three pigeon guns received and paid for in one day in the early eighties as I remember. All had 27 or 28 inch barrels. I had a chance to purchase one or all three when the owner was slimming his collection. The owner was a PA shooter who had spent a few years in Europe and purchased the guns as he was returning home. There was a Beretta 451EELL 28", a Bernardelli VB Holland Model, extra fine scroll, 27", Cosmi Standard Model, 27 or 28 inch. All were dedicated pigeon guns built for that purpose. I don't know whether such guns are still popular in Europe or whether they also have started to favor longer, heavier guns as we have.

Dr. Bill, You say "glass bed". I used superglue on the side inleting is this enough? Should I take reciever off and superglue "glass bed" the face? I would love to see pictures also.