I'm guessing that the first gun is not a VS model 12. I would bet it is more in the Model 10 range, based on what I have seen. It is higher than an 8E.

I am interested in the second gun, because it resembles a 16 gauge VS I chased and didn't capture. It also resembles a VS 20 bore gun that was for sale at Ivory Beads in Calif. last year.

I've yet to figure out the model on those guns except they are a Holland knock off...

I really like that gun.

Best,
Jim