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You may be right, eightbore, but on the Model 12s that Simmons made for Winchester, they weren't marked. Winchester didn't let them. So, if you see a Model 12 with the name Simmons on the side, you know it is an aftermarket for sure. And there goes the neighborhood. So, who wants any Winchester with a big ugly Simmons name stamped on the side of the rib? (So,you can't tell if it is original) Probably that used car saleman who stuck his sticker on every bumper he could. YUK!!

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Jimmy, I don't believe that you are correct in assuming that Simmons installed ribs on Model 12s for Winchester marketing. I think you are confusing this practice with the Model 42, on which Simmons did, in fact, install ribs for Winchester marketing. Most, if not all, Simmons installed ribs on Winchester marketed Model 42s were marked with Simmons logos. The reason that Winchester marketed vent rib Model 12s are not marked with Simmons logos is because Simmons did not install them. To answer your question about "who wants", such Winchester marketed Simmons marked guns are selling for thousands of dollars to collectors. As a matter of fact, Simmons marketed Model 42s are selling for the big buck also.

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Simmons didn't install the ribs at first during this period. (I didn't say they did). Winchester did but under license from Simmons who not only made them but designed them. The round post donut base and the round post vented rib was also a Simmons design but were installed by Winchester. Winchester even had Simmons train their employees to make them around 1954. This kept the name SIMMONS off of the rib. This made the ribs Winchester's and not Simmons from their point of view. Nobody cared about the Model 42 and what it had on it. The Model 12 was their baby and they didn't want the Simmons name tacked on it. And people around here don't want Simmons splashed on the ribs. Why spend thousands of dollars on one when you can get one without the name for the same money? Most people treat them like salt guns as soon as they see the name Simmons. Some buy them, some don't. The bottom line is, most people don't want SIMMONS stamped down the rib of a Winchester.

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All things M42 are pricey. Having "Simmons" in letters about 1/64th inch tall does nothing to detract from the aesthetics of either the 12 or 42 IMO. Still, collectability is a fickle thing that often has little to do with the physical shape of metal and more to do with 'who done it'.

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There is more to identifying a vent rib that was installed by Simmons or Winchester than examining the Simmons mark on the side of the rib. The mark is easily removed. If the mark is removed, the gun is no longer of interest to a serious collector because an original gun in a certain era and serial number range has the Simmons mark. "Didn't want the Simmons name tacked on it." most likely didn't have anything to do with Winchester's decision to have some Model 42s have the mark and Model 12s not have the mark. If Winchester wanted a mark or didn't want a mark, that's the way it would have been. The reason that the Winchester marketed Model 12 never had a Simmons mark is that no vent rib on a Winchester marketed Model 12 was installed at Simmons. Some vent ribs were installed on Winchester marketed Model 42s at Simmons, and most of them had a Simmons mark.

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(sorry for the OT hijack Abner!)

My well-used M12 Heavy Duck Gun, early 1952 S#1405XXX, has the poorly applied "Simmons Gun Specialties" marking on the ventilated rib.

In Gun Digest 2004 Hollis M. Flint had a nice article on these duck guns and had a few things to say about the ventilated ribs:

"The Winchester proof mark offset to the left of the rib indicates the rib was factory installed"

He quotes George Maddis as stating "Ventilated ribs were rarely offered on [duck] guns." However, "The fact is a few duck guns were provided with these ribs."

And he mentioned is a quote from Ronald Standt "All Winchester special ventilated rib magnum guns examined have sand-blasted receiver tops." (which my gun has...)

And he mentions that "Dave Riffle's book and the various catalogs I have indicate that the Winchester new ventilated rib was an option from about 1954 to 1959." (which seems to agree with Jimmy W)

With my limited information (this one 9 page article) it seems to me I have a M12 with a Winchester intalled Simmons marked rib.

Bryan




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The problem with collecting 42's and also model 12's is the upgrade factor. I bet 80% of the model 42 and almost as many model 12's left the factory with plain barrels. Now I bet 80% of them have ribs. They just grew on the barrels as time went by you think? No. Owners sent them to Simmons to have ribs added as ribs became the norm, an upgrade. Dealers added them to sell plain guns for more money an upgrade to make money. And a few were added by sellers hoping to cash in on the rare original factory ribs prices, fraud in my book. Ribs were not that popular until the late 60's. Like ejectors were a pricey feature on doubles 50 before, vent ribs were a sign of a real nice gun for someone how had money.

Simmons did mark a few factory guns from Winchester. I have two that are long time family guns that I know came with ribs when new and both are pre 1964 that are marked Simmons. I have another that was added later and it is also marked by Simmons. If you did not know that it had been done later only the placement of the stampings would tip you off. And how hard is it to remove one stamp and put a new one on at different place when you have to refinish the barrel anyways? Real easy and it pays to do it.

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The reason Winchester had Simmons come to their plant to instruct the Winchester people about the (Simmons designed) rib was because of rising material, labor costs and the popularity of the vented rib. Bottom line is- the word Simmons tacked on a Model 12 means aftermarket rib. On a 42 it means it isn't worth what one without it is. They work just fine, but most people who buy them today would prefer they didn't have the stamp. So, getting back to the original question, if Simmons stamps their name on the side of my Fox, I'm going to get nasty about it.

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What Winchester would actually do a lot of times is send a Model 12 to Simmons with or without a solid rib. No proof mark shows it left as a field grade and if it only has a proofmark on the barrel, it left as a solid rib. Simmons would remove the solid rib and replace it with a vented rib and/or they would put a vented rib on the field guns. When it was sent back to Winchester, if there were no Simmons trademark on the rib, it was either installed by Simmons and returned in the white, or it was installed by Winchester. This is why collectors only collect the ones without a name on the rib, because they were actual Winchesters. But Simmons did buy Model 12s, put their ribs on and sell them theirselves. This is all pretty common knowledge to Model 12 collectors.

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Jimmy's last two sentences explain Sven's gun. As Jimmy says, Simmons bought new Model 12s and 42s with plain barrels from Winchester, installed ribs and often stamped proof marks in the proper place and sold them through the Simmons catalog. They are known as "Simmons marketed" Winchesters. Such Model 42s are almost as collectable as factory Winchesters. Model 12s are somewhat less marketable, because many Model 12s were plain barrel guns and most Simmons ribbed Model 12s are aftermarket, not Simmons marketed. A Model 42 Skeet with plain barrel is a rare bird by the fifties and Simmons was the only source, so a Simmons ribbed Skeet Grade 42 in the fifties serial number range is likely not an aftermarket installation, but a Simmons marketed gun or a real Winchester factory gun. By the fifties, Simmons had bought all the Model 42 plain skeet barrels and Winchester hadn't made one in that configuration for years.

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