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Oh my nO jOe - 'Steel Twist', 'Rubans d'acier', or 'Stahlband' was simply Twist with a higher steel content



Remember that Twist rods were NOT twisted prior to being wrapped around the mandrel.

"When we see Americas best Damascus are we not really looking at a Belgium made barrel?"

Only my opinion jOe-but one way to answer that question is the fact that I've never read nor seen a British damascus barrel in a Bernard, Herringbone, Etoile (star), Chine, or other more complex patterns. We also have clear connections between Pieper (and others) and Remington and Plunger-Riga & Heuse-Riga Fils and Colt. SO it is my opinion that American 'Best' by Lefever, Smith, Baker, Remington, and Colt had Belgian damascus. The ONLY Parker barrel with any maker's marks found so far is this Pre-1870 Back Action Lifter with Damas Anglais 3 Iron



And Birmingham Provisional Proof marks



From W.W. Greener's 1907 The Gun
“…with the English maker the figure of the barrel is the last thing to be considered when determining the type most fit for the particular purpose, whereas with the foreign manufacturer it is usually the first, and often the only consideration. The English maker takes a barrel that will do best; the foreign maker the barrel that will look best.”

I believe Greener referred to them all as "Twist". He designated between "Plain Twist" & "Damascus Twist". The Twist here would seem to refer to the act of winding it around the mandrel, which was common to both. The Plain was not twisted in the bar prior to winding & is often heard called "Wire Twist" as it gives this appearence. The term Damascus refers to it's having been twisted in the bar producing a pattern other than just the spiral of winding. In the general terminology of the day most gunmakers referred to them simply as "Twist" (plain twist) & "Damascus" (damascus twist) with perhaps some other modifing term as "London Twist" or "Chain Damascus", Star Damascus" etc, etc. Generally speaking I believe the term "Laminated Steel" is ""supposed"" to mean a higher than normal steel content in the mix & can be applied to various patterns. Whether or not the less expensive guns we see with what appears to be plain twist bbls marked laminated steel, actually have that higher percentage is probably open to considerable debate.

This is also called 'Damascus Twist' - One Iron Crolle-Twist laminate also called London and Bernard Loop.



and this is 'Stub Damascus'



And these are all the different identified names for 'Twist'
Twist damascus
Wire twist
Stub twist
Stub damascus
Plain twist/ Skelp
Twopenny/Wednesbury Skelp
Threepenny Skelp
Band
Canons tordus
Tors ou torches
Ruban tordu tin
Ruban d'acier
Bamdnak
Pointelle' twist
Ribbon damascus
Birmingham
Lutticher Crolle
Stahlband
Steel Twist

BOTTOM LINE: In the late 1800s, as now, there was no "International Commission on the Nomenclature and Definition of Pattern Welded Steel Shotgun Barrels" SO folks just called barrels what they wanted
If I can contribute anything to this debate, it would be to define our terms so we are all speaking a common language and THAT is why we desperately need the English Damascus Rosetta Stone. Pics of the Belgian Stone should appear this summer!

And 'Laminated Steel' is just as confusing
See http://docs.google.com/View?docid=dfg2hmx7_52fs85cfgt
The key is that the iron and steel was 'puddled' together into a 'bloom' prior to hammering and rolling into rods. In Damascus, the iron and steel strips were separate.

And here's a T. Barker 'Daminated Steel' which is obvious Twist



Most JABCs with Twist barrels were marked 'Laminated' and had some 'English' sounding name

John Birmingham, London

Many thanks to all you guys for sharing your knowledge and photos. I am still pecking away at learning this process, frustratingly slowly!

There is some duplication here. Altogether we only have 5 named patterns.

This is Belgian Laminated or Twist. It is 50% iron / steel. Notice the broken or segmented steel layers. This gives the impression that there is less steel in the barrel than there actually is when it is twisted.




All the sample boxes in the world are still meant as salesman's tools. The only standardization would be in the Belgian naming of those patterns that were patented. These are the only surviving images from those patents. Everything else is lost to us at the moment.








Unless some is willing to go as far as Manfred Sachse did, we will never be sure of all that is involved in assembly of the billets.

Pete

This thread has made great reading, I have spent most of today emailing and writing people in search of the damascus rossetta stone, I hope I can provide you guys with some info and pictures soon, Paul ( barrel browner )

Did you guys read Sherman Bells latest article in the DGJ.

Just checked Border's yesterday jOe- Turkministan gets DGJ before Phoenix What's it about?