doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Who does rib matting on NOS Fox barrels?

Hello All,
I have a Winchester Model 12 16 Gauge "Skeet" gun (marked on the bottom of the receiver). It has target wood and a vent rib with the proof mark on the side of the barrel. The rib has the Simmons Gun Specialties markings. Also besides the normal barrel markings, it is marked 2 3/4 WS-1.
Enjoy the day, Mike

Actually, the standard/field grade as well as the Skeet Gun and the Deluxe was made until 1963. The reason they hadn't made the Skeet Gun without a rib, (in correcting KY Jon) was that after the war, the vented rib became popular and people started wanting them or the solid rib (which was standard from the beginning). This is why Winchester called on Simmons in 1954 to help them with the ribs. The Skeet Gun Trap Grade and the Trap Grade were discontinued in 1939. The vented ribbed 42s that were put out by Winchester went through the same routine as the Model 12s. The vented ribbed was added at Simmons and returned to Winchester in the white with no Simmons name on the rib. This was to keep the 42 as well as the 12 "pure" New Haven guns. Simmons probably put all of the 42 ribs on the guns, but not all of them had the name SIMMONS on them. Or at least they will tell you so. Ned Schwing will tell you that Winchester put their vented ribs on the 42s BEFORE they contacted Simmons. This is why most people who want a "true" 42 or 12 will avoid all of the controversy and just get one without the SIMMONS name on the side and why the pure New Haven guns are more desireable than the ones with the Simmons name, even though they are basically the same.

Ralph,
Did you contact Simmons to see if they would matte your rib?

Call Galazans and ask this question direct to them. This about the tenth thread asking this question on several boards. But to this date no one as actually picked up the phone and asked if Galazans will do rib matting on a Fox or Mdl-21.

Tony has the only original Winchester matting machine that I know of that is actually up and running cutting rib's. They build Mdl-21's and Foxes. So if anyone could do it it would be them. Don't be surprised if they say no.

Please report back to use what you find out!

Hi Chuck: I did get hold of Simmons and they do rib matting if the rib is flat. They, at this time, cannot do concave ribs---they are working on it and maybe will be able to do concave in the next 60-90 days. Someone mentioned they did a lazer cutting for the ribs, but that is not true, they only machine cut the flat ribs at this time and the cost is about $200.00. Thanks for all the suggestions and I will let you know what happens in the next few months.

...and thanks all for the OT discussion on Simmons vent ribs on M12/42s. I appreciate the education. I now understand that my Heavy Duck is likely a "Simmons Marketed" gun due to the presence of the proofmarks.

I also noticed that the rib on my gun says PATENTED. I looked it up and E.P. Simmons applied for a patent in 1948 to cover his vent rib design. It was awarded in late 1952 (US2620583). Could be licensing negotiations took another two years before Winchester could start doing it themselves, and might explain Simmons being allowed to "re-strike" the Win proof. Interesting that the patent diagrams for the rib show essentially a M12 with a "poly" choke system.

Bryan

The "Simmons Patented" marking, at least on Model 42s, is just an earlier marking than the "Simmons Gun Specialties, Kansas City, Missouri" marking. I don't remember the dates specifically. In the later period of Model 42 manufacture, a few Winchester marketed Model 42s were made with oval posts and no Simmons markings at all. This is just another variation of Simmons installed ribs on original Winchester marketed guns. Popular opinion is that all Model 12 vent rib guns marketed by Winchester had ribs installed at Winchester. That same opinion is that only the donut post Model 42 rib with squiggly lines were installed at Winchester. I would be interested to know Jimmy's reference stating that some Winchester marketed vent rib Model 12s had their ribs installed at Simmons. I am not familiar with that reference.

"If no Winchester proofmarks show, the gun left the factory as a field grade. If a proofmark shows only on the barrel, the gun left the factory with a solid rib, which Simmons subsequently removed before installing a vented rib. If no Simmons trademark appears on the rib, it either was installed by Simmons and returned to Winchester in the white or, more likely, was installed by Winchester. Winchester was licensed to install Winchester special ventilated ribs and paid royalties to Simmons Gun Specialties for a number of years. (Ernie Simmons ,Sr. served as consultant to Winchester for a number of years.) It has been reported that during 1954-59 Winchester installed Winchester special vented ribs on Model 12s and 42s under a Simmons patent and the guidance of about six Simmons consultants. Employees have reported that barrels may have been sent to Simmons for installation of ribs, and that receivers were not sent to Simmons but rather were milled and fitted with rib extensions in New Haven."...... "A purist would only collect guns without Simmons trademarks because they are all New Haven." ....."Winchester Shotguns And Shotshells", Ronald W. Stadt. page 108-09.

This pretty much shows the attitude of Winchester. They wanted the Simmons rib on the gun, but they didn't want the name stamped on the rib. And they paid to have their guns that way. Either way, you get the same rib, but people who are collectors, want the unmarked rib. I imagine they shoot the same. NOW, let's talk Model 12 with a big humungous Moneymaker trap rib. Cool man.

Stadt was not being very realistic about collectors he refers to as "purists". Several variations of genuine Winchester produced and marketed Model 42s have Simmons markings and sell for $3000 to $5000 if in high condition. Even Simmons marketed Model 42s are selling above $3000. I think the buyers are "purists".