doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Rotable hook on hammer of a Winchester 101 Pigeon?

Posted this on another forum, but couldn't get an answer:

Hi All,

I am trying to figure out the function/purpose of the hook which is rotatably mounted on each hammer of a Winchester 101 Pigeon Grade XTR Lightweight 20ga O/U. (The part in question is noted by the writing pen in the photographs below.)

The hooks are able to freely rotate, and are not actuated by any spring or other mechanism, as far as I can tell. It seems that only gravity or inertia would cause the hook to pivot on its axle. In fact, I can hear the hooks rattling around inside the action when I turn the gun upside down or shake it. Seems like these things would violently rattle with each shot, and eventually cause some damage to themselves.

I think the normal position of the hook before firing the barrel is as shown in the first photo. The hook engages the pin (as shown in the second photo) when the gun is turned upside-down.

The hook does not hold the pin tightly when engaged with the pin, i.e. there is quite a bit of play between the hook and the pin. I have verified that with the gun upside down and the hook engaged with the pin, the sear can release the hammer when the trigger is pulled, but the hook prevents the hammer from falling and striking the firing pin. The hammer only moves about 1/8". The hammer is then cocked when the gun is broken open, but the shell (snap cap when I tried this in my basement) is not ejected.

The triggers are mechanical resetting. Operation of the safety or barrel selector does not appear to have any affect on the hook.

Especially perplexing to me is that not all my Winchester 101 Pigeon Grades have this feature, and none of my three exploded 101 drawings show the hook.

I guess this could be a safety feature to prevent the gun from firing when it is upside down, but this seems like a lot of extra complication (and manufacturing expense) for a safety feature with a relatively narrow range of use. (edited to add: could possibly be a safety feature to prevent the gun from doubling, or from firing when the action is closed hard?)

Thanks!

--shinbone

Is the trigger mechanical or inertia? (101s had both types). I suspect that it has to do with setting an inertia trigger for the second shot.

Don - Thanks for your input. I edited my original post to indicate that the triggers are mechanical resetting. However, your comment makes me wonder whether the hook forms some sort of anti-doubling mechanism?

--shinbone

The twenty I had didn't have them nor any of my twelves all mach.triggers.Wonder if its the set up they may have used for their rifle 101's.

You said that not all of your guns have this, which tells me that some of them do. On the ones that have them, do they all work the same way? I am thinking that it is to keep the gun from discharging if closed too hard.

Of the multiple Winchester 101's that I have or had, this is the only one I know of having this feature.

If the hook is an anti-doubling mechanism (like I suggested above) or a feature to prevent accidental discharges if the gun is closed hard, it seems to me like a "rube goldberg" solution to a poor trigger design? But, the 101's were not known for bad tirggers, at least as far as I know.

. . . just thinking out loud . . .

--shinbone

Resurrecting this old thread . . .

The gun in question (shown in the original photos, which are no longer accessible due to me walking away from my Photobucket account many years ago) was sent to Gunter Pfrommer for repair of the cocking sear of the lower barrel.

Gunter tore the gun down and noticed the hooks. He said those hooks are an extra safety feature added to some Winchester 101s. The feature is to prevent the gun from firing when the barrels are pointing down. The idea being to keep one from shooting off his own foot.

After over 17 years we finally have the answer to the question.

—Shinbone

Hmm, so a Winchester 101 might not be a good choice for sitting up in a machan with buckshot for a man eating leopard?

I can think of one or two sporting clay stands (a Scuttling’ Rat at Bisley springs to mind) where you need to shoot at a fairly steep angle of depression.

I wonder where they set the “no fire” angle -45 degrees, -60 or -75?

How 'bout that? Good 'ol Gunter. 😊

You know, it’s a funny thing, but, if I open a gun, load it, close it, disengage the safety, and pull the trigger, I have an expectation that the damn thing will go off for me.

Anything after pulling the trigger, I always figured was on me.

Best,
Ted