doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Dishonest??

How happy would you be if you bought what was a two barrel set only to find out later that it had not always been a two barrel set? If you paid extra based on the belief that it was a two barrel factory original set and it was in fact a composed or cobbled set you would have over paid. I never have serial numbers altered on guns that I have added extra barrels and do not see where you could do so without a little fraud in your actions.

How about this?

Wow, Chuck. That is pretty bad. I have a Model 21 that has the barrels opened up to CYL/IMP.CYL. Someone took something and Xd out the original stampings of the chokes. Looks about like yours.

Jimmy, Winchester engraved (or stamped) a line through old markings when changing them at the factory. Schwing, I think, shows a 2 1/2" chamber marking with a line through it and a 3" stamped next to it.

I actually pondered this with my lowly Remington model 17. I purchased an un-cut barrel with original choke off Ebay (when you could do that) knowing that you just don't slap a different barrel on a model 17-you have it looked at by a 'smith to see the headspace is okey dokey, and it fits about like it was made to. The added barrel was from a four digit gun, likely produced with a 2 1/2 chamber. If I payed a 'smith to check the headspace, fit the barrel to the receiver, lengthen the chamber for use with modern ammunition on my 1933 vintage gun, how would I communicate this fact to someone down the road who might not be able to confirm this with me?

Matching the serial numbers on the barrels would be the easiest way. But, this is, at best, $250-350 worth of using gun. No collector would be looking at a piece like this. There are differences in the font of the type used on the rest of both barrel markings that should tip all but the most blithly unaware off that the barrels didn't come together on this gun, and the year of production was the height of the depression, during which, few working mans pump's were going to be sold with the luxury of a second tube. I have no intention of defrading anyone, and, should I sell the gun (unlikely, that task would fall to an executor) I'd point out that the barrel was fitted and numbered later.

As of yet, I've done the easiest thing-nothing. I haven't even had the gun to the 'smith to have it examined, let alone any work done. But, I'll watch this post to get a feel for how I should, one day, proceed.
Best,
Ted

Look out for dovetail lump barrels that are doctored up to look like chopper lump barrels. This done by scribing lines (probably after proof) in the lumps.

(I don't care if the barrels are named or not - check with the Maker or a good gunsmith if you have ANY question. Now I have no problem with properly made/struck/proofed British dovetail lump barrels but I want to know what I am getting.)

This was a common practice several years ago when it was easy and much cheaper to get dovetail lump barrels from B'ham (or Belgium) than chopper lump barrels from B'ham or London. I guess rather than sleeve a (Best) gun and seriously reduce the price the vendor had new cheaper DL barrels made and proofed in London. It was also cheaper and probably quicker than either going through the maker or a reputable outworker or vendor such as Westley Richards for proper and more expensive CL barrels. This would have seriously reduced their profit! They were then tarted up after proof, no doubt. I'd also be suspicious of honest boxlock guns that have CL barrels or the vendor makes a big deal of this. It just wasn't common practice years ago to put CL barrels on lower quality guns, so there is a story here at least. Now it is not unheard of for a BL to have replacement barrels by eg Boss but it is certainly not the rule!

There are quite a few (Best) guns floating around on this side of the pond that were rebarrelled that way. Now these guns often have correct (London) proof marks and so on. Then, after proof, perhaps on this side of the pond, the dealer or his minions scribes lines into the lumps to make it look to the unsuspecting that these are indeed London made and proofed chopper lump barrels that would be appropriate on a Best Gun. A lot of these guns can allegedly be traced back to a certain outfit that is no longer trading...but imported an immense number of (British) guns in the 70s-90s.

The vendor - PM me if you'd like the name of at least one dealer still extant - then advertises the gun as having chopper lump barrels. When I pointed this out to the seller they were VERY quick to make a substantial reduction in the asking price. They did not ask for proof of my finding which implies to me they knew what was going on, n'est-ce pas?

I don't know what sort of violation that this would be in the UK under the rules of Proof, etc. but such activity at least to this layperson is very deceptive and borders on fraud..... no matter what country we are living in.

Comments?

PS
I recall mentioning this practice to a small, reputable dealer in the UK about a decade ago over a pint during a break from a preauction viewing in the UK. He said that this was something that he always looked out for. I forget what he said the penalties were. Perhaps one of our UK friends can say. It's amazing how deceptive people can be!

Well, one thing we know is that there is absolutely no penalty for violating British proof over here. I wonder whether all British proof marks are for real. I wish I had pictures of the fake Purdey I appraised for a U.S. dealer a few years ago. I loved that gun, it was very high quality, but the dealer had other plans for it and would not sell it to me for the low buck. Oh well. At least I'll recognize it if I ever see it again. The same appraisal involved a high, very high, grade Parker smallbore that is now happily in a collection. It was as badly faked as the Purdey, unfortunately.

If it's a Beretta what's the difference? $15? They are basically machine made guns so they are meant to interchange. What is important to be honest - that's the bottom line.

A dear departed friend of mine was a high grade target gun dealer who specialized in one line of guns. Because of their interchangability he would make up a gun for each of his customers specially based on their wants for barrels, actions, stocks, trigger group, and so on, as well as the different clay games they played. Are these guns worth less or more than off the shelf configs you could buy from other dealers?

Now if it was an H&H Royal I would be more interested. How does it affect the value - how much more is a true pair worth than a matched pair? Perhaps the later gun used better materials but the same craftsmen were involved. Every situation is different...

Frankly I'd rather have a (second) pair of XXV barrels fitted to my 30" (London gun) by Churchill in the '30s than by the original maker (unless they used the same barrel filer, ha!) because EJC specialized in that configuration. Kinda like having a Boss trigger fitted rather than some other maker's ST, all other things being equal.

Comments?