doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Fox C or CE??

I have just acquired a Fox C or CE manufactured in 1909.
The barrel flat is stamped C as is the Receiver table.

This is surprising as the gun has Ejectors and the Callahan
letter dated Feb 3,2006 says the factory records state it is
a CE. Another oddity(?) is the chamber length is not given
in the letter.

Also, the weight is listed as 6 lbs 13 1/2 oz, yet, the gun
weighs 7 lb 8 oz. All serial numbers match the Callahan letter.

Is the above unusual or could this gun be something other than
the original gun that left the factory on May ll, 1909??

Thanks FOX SXS

Experts may be able to help you, but have you taken off the butt plate/pad? May be lead shot in there or some other source of weight added by a previous owner/shooter.

Only the late Savage-era graded guns were regularly stamped with the E for ejectors, most Philadelphia era guns just had the grade stamp. Which style ejectors does your gun have? The A.H. Fox & G.H. Horne Patent No. 921,220 granted May 11, 1909, or the later F.T. Russell Patent No. 991,375 granted May 2, 1911? Tom Kidd once mentioned in one of his articles that AHFGCo. added the later style ejectors to many of their graded extractor guns that were in stock once they were perfected.

Unless special longer chambering was requested, there would be nothing about chamber length on the card. The only two A.H. Fox Gun Co. catalogues, that I have seen, that state chamber lengths are the 1913 and 1914. They both state 12-gauge guns are regularly chambered for 2 3/4 - inch shells, 16-gauge 2 9/16 – inch shells and 20-gauge 2 1/2 - inch shells. That being said, virtually every 12-gauge Ansley H. Fox gun made in Philadelphia (other than the HE-Grade Super-Fox) that I've run a chamber gauge in shows about 2 5/8 - inch. The chambers of unmolested 16-gauge guns seem to run about 2 7/16 inch and 20-gauge guns a hair over 2 3/8 inch. A very few graded guns were ordered with longer chambers. Savage began stating chambered for 2 ¾ inch shells in their 1938 Fox catalogues.

All this being said there is a good body of evidence that back in those days chambers were held about 1/8 inch shorter than the shells for which they were intended. In the recently published book "The Parker Story" the Remington vintage specification sheets on pages 164 to 169 call for a chamber 1/8-inch shorter than the shell for which it is intended. Also in the 1930's there were a couple of articles in "The American Rifleman" (July 1936 and March 1938) on the virtue of short chambers. A recent issue of The Double Gun Journal carried an article on tests showing no significant increase in pressure from shooting shells in slightly short chambers. IMHO I don't much sweat that 1/8-inch in 12-gauge guns. On the other hand when one gets a 20-gauge chambered at 2 3/8-inch likely intended for 2 1/2-inch shells I do worry about folks firing 2 3/4-inch shells in such guns.

One could speculate endlessly as to why the gun is heavier then the card states. Something couple have happened and it was returned to the factory for a new set of barrels. Has it been restocked with a heavier piece of wood? Adding a recoil pad might add a few ounces.

Fox SXS, just to add to Dave's excellent reply. I have two early CE's - one is 1909, and the other 1910. Both of them are only marked C on the watertable.

Interestingly, both guns have the Russell Patent ejectors. The 1910 gun has a very faint marking on the forend iron that is discernible under the serial number area; the serial number is boldly stamped. With a high power magnifier I can read "PATENTS ________ IN F_________". I'm thinking the original Fox & Horne stamping was buffed or filed off and the number restamped.... before it was originally shipped, or as a Fox retrofit, who knows? It does not have the later Russell Patent date on the iron, just the serial number. Silvers

Silvers,

Could the stamping on your forearm iron have been "PATENTS PENDING"? See The Double Gun Journal, Volume Twelve, Issue 1, page 96 for the two forearms for serial number 35. One is stamped PATENTS PENDING and the other is engraved. That gun has the A.H. Fox & G.A. Horne ejectors, but was made well before the patent was actually granted. Probably before it was even applied for on July 24, 1907. AHFGCo. mentioned ejectors even in their early, 1906-vintage, Finest Gun in the World catalogues, but their magazine advertising didn't push ejectors until the 1911 F.T. Russell style.

Researcher, yes I looked at it again now that I have good daylight coming in the window. What I thought was a F is in fact a G. There are a few tiny perpendicular marks on the reamins of the G that make it look like a F. So, the last word on the iron was likely "PENDING" as you astutely suggested. Thanks! Silvers

I wish to thank Researcher, Silvers and Storm GSP for their
information regarding the CE grade Fox. Your inputs have
helped me broaden my Fox knowledge base. You provide much
more detail and substance than the Fox books I have read.

FOX SXS